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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 5 2013, 03:38 AM   #31
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

It was pretty explicit in the episode that what Sisko released would kill humans after prolonged exposure but not immediately.
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Old April 5 2013, 11:32 AM   #32
Timo
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

...Which in practice would mean that several weak individuals would die immediately and several strong ones would persist beyond the date provided by the manufacturer.

But Sisko did give his warning "less than an hour" (that is, more than a half) before firing the torpedoes, after which there was a cut for this entire "less than hour". I rather doubt Sisko spent all of that staying mysteriously mum; he might well have gotten the lowdown of his target in sufficient detail to optimize his attack pattern and whatnot.

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Old April 5 2013, 11:33 AM   #33
R. Star
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Timo wrote: View Post
...Which in practice would mean that several weak individuals would die immediately and several strong ones would persist beyond the date provided by the manufacturer.

But Sisko did give his warning "less than an hour" (that is, more than a half) before firing the torpedoes, after which there was a cut for this entire "less than hour". I rather doubt Sisko spent all of that staying mysteriously mum; he might well have gotten the lowdown of his target in sufficient detail to optimize his attack pattern and whatnot.

Timo Saloniemi
I don't know. Even Worf, the most trigger happy guy in the franchise, questioned his order to fire. So even he seemed surprised by the implications, even if he obeyed after it was repeated... loudly. Seems to me Sisko wasn't discussing much with anyone as POed at Eddington as we was.
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Old April 5 2013, 07:09 PM   #34
Timo
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

It's a trademark of Trek skippers to hold the cards close to the chest, even as regards their own crew. Sisko could well have asked Worf, Dax, Nog and the rest for all the relevant data in a typically circumspect way, splitting the job according to the expertise of the respective officers - and Worf would be the last guy to put together something like that, even if Dax might have guessed what young Ben was up to this time.

Really, Sisko would only need to know things like "What is the population and population distribution?", "How many ships do you think they have?" and "Do you detect any increase or decrease in local comm traffic?". He could insert the specs of trilithium fallout himself, being no slouch in the usual renaissance man department.

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Old September 24 2013, 03:56 PM   #35
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

A curious side note.

Am I the only person who hopes the end of the war, meant a better future for the maquis. With fewer cardassians left alive, and cardassia weakened politically.
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Old September 24 2013, 04:14 PM   #36
R. Star
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

What Maquis? Aside from the ones the Federation took prisoner and the handful on Voyager, they were all slaughtered when Cardassia joined the Dominion.
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Old September 24 2013, 04:29 PM   #37
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Do we know for certain that whatever Sisko released would be lethal versus merely...very unpleasant?

Sorry, it's been forever since I've seen the episode.
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Old September 24 2013, 04:36 PM   #38
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

The federation makes peace with the cardassians; several federation colonies are in the vicinity of the demilitarized zone.
The cardassians keep breaking the treaty, killing federation colonists. The federation cheerfully lets this happen while doing nothing.
The colonists form the Maquis to fight back.
The federation savagely hunts down the Maquis.
Sisko, a starfleet captain, destroys 2 Maquis colonies (containing non-combatants, children, elderly) with only a low realistic chance of the inhabitants escaping their now destroyed home. That's a WAR CRIME by any legal definition.
The dominion attacks the Maquis colonies (which are still federation colonies - that's the justification given by starfleet for hunting them down; if the Maquis were independent, the federation would have no right to impose its jurisdiction on them), utterly destroying them. The federation cheerfully does nothing, despite it being clear that war with the dominion is imminent (Sisko mined the wormhole a few days/convoys later).

Yes, Sisko WAS a Javert. And a WAR CRIMINAL.
And the federation, starfleet and Sisko should be ashamed of their treatment of the Maquis. They proved themselves to be unworthy of loyalty. Indeed, any surviving Maquis is more than justified to view the federation as his/her proven enemy.
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Old September 25 2013, 03:34 AM   #39
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Sisko was not a Javert...but neither was Eddington a Valjean.
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Old October 4 2013, 08:37 AM   #40
MikeS
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I only just got onto the fact that Chakotay's Maquis ship was called Valjean (only seen VOY once). It seems that the writers were obsessed with the parallels with Les Mis.
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Old October 5 2013, 08:36 PM   #41
publiusr
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I would have liked to see a colony formed by folks who had done time for the plot in the Undiscovered country, some essentialists, genetically modified folks, etc.--all joining the Maquis.
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Old October 11 2013, 09:09 AM   #42
Navaros
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Javert would never have been able to forgive, let alone love Cassidy. Javert could never have tolerated having officers like Dax or Kira serving under him let alone Odo...who's sense of justice trumps his view of the law
Javert is committed to justice at all costs. As such, he would love Odo (that is, up until the writers assassinated the integrity of Odo's character in S7 by having him refuse to cure the Founders of their genocide disease [the only just course of action; one that Odo's sense of justice would compel him to take, if the character's integrity remained intact] just because Sisko told him not to).

I'm not sure why you say Javert wouldn't like Dax or Kira serving under him. Unless you mean because Dax is a hypocrite for having the gall to disparage Victor Hugo's women characters for being one-dimensional, when she herself is one of the most one-dimensional, uninteresting and worst woman characters ever written. Javert surely would not tolerate hypocrites serving under him, but that is a good thing.

Sisko forgiving Cassidy, and the other Maquis traitor/SF Captain, just goes to show that Sisko, too, is a hypocrite; it does not show that Sisko is better than Javert. I suspect that Sisko forgave them because they are black, yet could not forgive Eddington because he is white.

On the contrary, Javert is not a hypocrite, and does not apply standards of justice selectively, as does Sisko.

Furthermore, I highly doubt Javert would poison planets and/or otherwise kill/harm innocents to get his way, yet for Sisko, that is no problem.

So to answer the question,"Was Sisko a Javert?" No, Sisko is worse than a Javert: Javert is a much better person, albeit a bit misguided; Sisko, however, is a full-fledged monster [one might also recall Sisko's pretty-much-rape of Mirror Dax].

Sisko has all of Javert's bad qualities, such as obsessing over a minor theft, yet Sisko has none of Javert's good qualities, such as a consistent standard of justice and a commitment to behave personally in a moral way.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:14 AM   #43
Tuvok
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

A minor theft ?

Attacking a Federation starship ?

Attacking a fleeing Cardassian transport from a planet the ' heroic' Marquis poisoined.'

Eddington was only a hero in his own mind.

What the hell did the Marquis think was going to happen. Did the honestly expect that they where the only ones willing to play hard ball.

I get it. The Federation failed you, but they chose to stay behind in Cardassian controlled space. Space is big, findsomewhere else. The price of peace was compromise and guess what they got screwed over it.

Let's not forgot the Marquis used Bio Weapons first, but hey they used it on a defenceless Cardie planet so that makes it ok. It's not like Cardie's have kids or babies do they?

Beside's they're Cardie's and where the holier then thou, under dog Marquis so that makes it ok.

If don't want to get burned, don't start tossing fire about.

And if your willing to use terrorist tactics, don't bitch when someone uses it back.

The Federation is flawed, the Federation considers its image as a Utopia important. But Sisko is no Picard, he doesn't represent the ideal. He represents the reality .

In reality , if your willing to wear Grey hats and call yourself the hero . Then get ready for the guy willing t wear a darker hat and give you a taste of your own medicine.

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Old October 14 2013, 12:39 AM   #44
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ And the thing is, the Federation didn't "fail" the Maquis. It was those colonists' idea to stay in the DMZ in the first place! They knew exactly what the treaty contained and what they would be doing, living under Cardassian rule. Unfortunately, the Cardassians with whom they directly negotiated TO live under their rule (Gul Evek) were less nasty than the ones who shipped weapons to the DMZ, but that's another matter - there's no way that's the Federation's fault. If anybody failed the Maquis, it was the Cardassians, not the Federation. The Federation honored the agreement; the Cardassians did not.

In any case, stirring up trouble in the DMZ would only lead to war with Cardassia, which apparently is what the Maquis wanted all along.
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Old October 14 2013, 01:36 AM   #45
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

The federation hunted the Maquis down as animals after Cardassia helped its DMZ colonists break the treaty - but the federation didn't fail them? Really?

A federation using biological weapons against a federation colony (which threatened to kill men, women, children - citizens of the UFP -, and, in all probability, killed a number of them) because one maquis - Eddington - used a biological weapon, is not a federation that failed its maquis citizens? Ridiculous.
Also - nice to see the ethics of the federation are the ethics of war criminals.

The federation let the its DMZ citizens be massacred without doing a single thing - I guess that, as the federation saw it, it had only rights over them (to hunt them down and poison their colonies for breaking its laws) but no obligations (to protect them).
And this is the federation not failing the Maquis.
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