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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 3 2013, 02:45 AM   #1966
Sykonee
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
Anyway, since both shows consist of multiple seasons, and differing numbers of them at that, it seems a bit silly to me to try literally comparing one season to another. If we're going to do that perhaps we should take it further and compare things on a per-episode basis? Doesn't seem sensible.
I already did that.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:09 AM   #1967
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm afraid to ask how that turned out.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:06 AM   #1968
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
The Characters



Quark: Quark is a good character that was often poorly used, especially in the later seasons. When interacting with the rest of the crew, his banter and unique perspective could be the highlight of an episode. But as the series developed and the cast fragmented into their own groups, Quark was often left interacting with other Ferengi in lame comedy episodes. when Quark is on form then he's one of the best things about the show, and when he's off form he's one of the worst.
I agree with all of your assessments except this one, mainly because I'm less harsh on Ferengi comedies than you are. But I also think, even in bad episodes like, say, "Profit and Lace," Quark himself isn't a bad character. But I guess that's a subjective thing. And I definitely agree that he could've been taken in better directions.

I could go on and detail my opinions on the recurring characters, but this series review has been delayed enough.
Umm, now that the series review is done... could you go back and do this? Your analyses are extremely well-done, and I'd love to see your views on, hmm, all of them. (But especially Garak, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Winn, Bareil, Ross, Nog, Rom… um, yeah, all of them.) Pretty please?
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Old April 3 2013, 04:42 AM   #1969
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm afraid to ask how that turned out.
Click here if you're curious. It was only a two year project.
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Old April 3 2013, 06:02 AM   #1970
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You know those are non-refundable, right?
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Old April 3 2013, 12:37 PM   #1971
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I'm a bit more critical of B5 than you (mainly because I think DS9 was generally a lot better on the simple "craft" side of things, from writing dialogue to acting) but I pretty much completely agree with your conclusions and rankings. I think you've hit the nail on the head with the arc-vs-standalone balance being the true strength of the show. Also, the characters. Just reading your short summary of the main cast has reminded me how much I loved these people and how nicely they were written.

And while I agree the arcs could have benefited a lot from some more planning and structuring, I feel like the improvisational nature of the arc writing - the ability of the writers to spin out new unplanned story strands from often unconnected exisiting stuff in a surprising but logical way - was very much a quality in itself and added a certain natural feel to the world of the show. I don't think any show before or since DS9 has had as many successful "WTF? Oh, wait, that makes perfect sense" arc-related moments for me. In the light of some disappointing stuff that came after it (which is to say, BSG ), I'd say DS9 is one of the best proofs you definitely can write a good arc on-the-fly.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:27 PM   #1972
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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Just wanted to say I enjoy reading these Ben! Will you be doing TNG next?
I'm leaning towards doing TNG next, for nostalgia's sake and because I want to see how it stacks up next to the other Trek series. But Farscape is still a possibility.

But first, I plan to go back over my old review threads and save the reviews on my own computer. Knowing me, that could take me anywhere from a few days to three months.

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
I agree with all of your assessments except this one, mainly because I'm less harsh on Ferengi comedies than you are. But I also think, even in bad episodes like, say, "Profit and Lace," Quark himself isn't a bad character.
Quark was usually good even in crappy episodes. But what I meant by that is that he attracted crappy Ferengi characters and stories onto the show like a magnet. If Quark had been somehow better integrated into the main cast then there wouldn't have been the need for the Ferengi side-show that dragged the whole show down on several occasions.

Umm, now that the series review is done... could you go back and do this? Your analyses are extremely well-done, and I'd love to see your views on, hmm, all of them. (But especially Garak, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Winn, Bareil, Ross, Nog, Rom… um, yeah, all of them.) Pretty please?
No promises, but maybe. Just don't expect anything any time soon.

DonIago wrote: View Post
You know those are non-refundable, right?
But that thread is the reason why Sykonee gets a counter in each of my threads. What more could a guy possibly ask for out of life?

neozeks wrote: View Post
I'm a bit more critical of B5 than you (mainly because I think DS9 was generally a lot better on the simple "craft" side of things, from writing dialogue to acting) but I pretty much completely agree with your conclusions and rankings.
I had actually written about two paragraphs saying that, but I didn't want to focus too much on the contrasts between DS9 and B5, so I deleted them and focused on what was good about DS9. When I say that DS9's standalone episodes are the reason why it has a higher average score, what I'm really getting at is that (in my opinion) DS9 was better than B5 in most areas. The result is that DS9's best episodic stories were able to overcome what I perceive to be the shortcomings of that form of storytelling and compete with B5's epic arc-heavy episodes.

I love B5, but when it wasn't focusing on story arcs or its best characters, the show struggled to be anything special. DS9 could tell a standalone story about the weakest member of the main cast (Jake) and get it into my top ten. Twice.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:02 PM   #1973
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You might have a point there as a fair chunk of my favourite DS9 episodes are standalones whereas none of my favourite B5 episodes are. However, B5 was also a much more serialised show, with S3 and S4 being much, much more serialised than DS9 ever was. B5 was actively trying to show how television could be transformed in to something more literary, whereas DS9 was just a very awesome Star Trek show.

I also think B5 explored its themes in a much deeper, more meaningful way. Sinclair's spiritual journey from broken war hero to Minbari messiah, or Sheridan's experiences with Lorien and Za'hadum touched me more deeply and were more evocative concepts, than Sisko tackling a demon-posessed Dukat in order to destroy a magic book.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:54 PM   #1974
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

What we may have, then, is a case where, for the general public at least, the series that provides a better story isn't the same thing as the series that provides a better television viewing experience.

Come to that it might be interesting to compare B5 and DS9 on the level of story/character/production values/what-have-you...though I'm sure it's been done and will likely be done again, and may be such a matter of opinion that there's no consensus.

Personally I don't generally care to compare the two, as I feel the difference in approaches to storytelling make them ill-suited for comparison. B5 deserves a lot of credit for executing a story that was in many ways laid-out before the show even aired. Conversely DS9 was in many cases writing a lot more on-the-fly...however, I maintain that in some ways that means DS9 deserves more credit for situations where the story arcs worked well.

Besides: in the end, I enjoyed both of them, so why should I willingly seek to laud one to the detriment of the other?
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Old April 3 2013, 07:04 PM   #1975
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DS9 and B5 are two of my absolute favourite TV shows, I just find it fun to compare them as it helps me narrow down what elements in storytelling I prioritise. I love The Gathering and Emissary about equally, for different reasons. The Gathering has the better world-building, atmosphere and intrigue but Emissary has the better plot and character development.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:11 PM   #1976
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I appreciate what The Gathering sets out to do, and in some cases does, but I have to admit for the most part I find it a bit painful to revisit.

Emissary also has its slow points of course, but, while I guess I'm being lowest-common-denominator here, the opening is still, for my money, one of the best moments of Trek. Sure it doesn't quite hold up to what came later, but at the time we'd never seen anything like that.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:31 PM   #1977
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

The opening battle was a good hook for new viewers and forgivable because the show never had the Borg appear in a stunt like that again. Also, by having the Borg kill Sisko's wife it meant they had more impact in their DS9 cameo than in the entirety of their run on Voyager.

My favourite parts in Emissary are Sisko's meeting with the Prophets. It's a plotline I dislike in the final season but it's perfectly handled at the beginning. Very smart science-fiction.
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Old April 5 2013, 05:57 AM   #1978
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DS9 and B5 are both very good series, which is the easy way out of that argument.

And you posted your final series-spanning review on my birthday, so that was nice. It's been a fun read all the way.
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Old April 5 2013, 07:36 AM   #1979
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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DS9 and B5 are both very good series, which is the easy way out of that argument.

And you posted your final series-spanning review on my birthday, so that was nice. It's been a fun read all the way.
I tried watching a few season 1 B5 eps a few months back and... it just failed to hook me. I dunno why... the station was interesting and more... rough... so to say, but the cast just fell flat.

I know, everyone says it's better later on and to be fair season 1 of both tng and ds9 fell fairly flat too. Just one of those things, I haven't really gotten into yet.
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Old April 5 2013, 12:27 PM   #1980
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I did the same a few months back but gave it the benefit of the doubt and continued watching... And it's really worth it. The characters get much better later on (especially Londo and G'Kar, but the humans too) and especially the story gets better. It's worth grinding through season 1.
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