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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 5 2013, 02:06 AM   #196
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

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Old April 5 2013, 02:13 AM   #197
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
but thats a better arguement than your actual arguement.

i mean i'd comment on the crazy exaggerations, but all your rambles have been like that. points for not repeating eveything again though
Nope those are the logical conclusions of all your arguments and show how insane they are. Points for putting three lines of thought into that comment instead of your usual one
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Old April 5 2013, 02:16 AM   #198
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

What the frak?
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Old April 5 2013, 02:20 AM   #199
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

change back post 196 to say you respect my point of view! i saw it but you deleted all the text before i could grab it in a quote!

it was something like:

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
i can repect your position, however i must disagree.
what happened, came off too reasonable or something?

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
but thats a better arguement than your actual arguement.

i mean i'd comment on the crazy exaggerations, but all your rambles have been like that. points for not repeating eveything again though
Nope those are the logical conclusions of all your arguments and show how insane they are. Points for putting three lines of thought into that comment instead of your usual one
my 'insane' arguement was all torture is bad and cain was a poor captain. yeah insane.
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Old April 5 2013, 02:28 AM   #200
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
change back post 196 to say you respect my point of view! i saw it but you deleted all the text before i could grab it in a quote!
Change back to #195 where you wrote your usual one-liner but decided to edit it and expand it to what was I'm sure a heavy-lift three lines changing the meaning. But hey, according to some people context doesn't matter.
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Old April 5 2013, 02:34 AM   #201
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

I hope you realize that Cain isn't real. You don't have to defend the actions of a fictional character since they didn't really happen.

It's an interesting though exercise, but you might be taking it a little too far.
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Old April 5 2013, 02:37 AM   #202
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I hope you realize that Cain isn't real. You don't have to defend the actions of a fictional character since they didn't really happen.

It's an interesting though exercise, but you might be taking it a little too far.
Cain is a proxy for my world-view and an interesting way for me to look at what American Presidents of both parties feel they need to do in modern times and throughout history in waging war. You might be right about taking it to far though
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Old April 5 2013, 02:39 AM   #203
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

shouldn't you use the actual president character then? compare the whole voterigging story with george w bush or nixon. also the president isn't a semi-recurring guest star

thats like learning to drive a car by watching tennis
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Old April 5 2013, 02:42 AM   #204
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
shouldn't you use the actual president character then? because the president isn't a semi-recurring guest star
Eh, Cain for me represented Dick Cheney (who really had the power in the Bush administration) more than Roselin. As seen with my quote in the OP. "In the face of duty, honor is meaningless" ~Cheney. I immediately thought of Cain. Cain was the leader of the Pegasus and de facto head of the fleet in their short time together though not technically "President".
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Old April 5 2013, 02:45 AM   #205
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

then maybe you should've let everyone else know this instead of saying 'strawman' all the time
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Old April 5 2013, 02:47 AM   #206
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

I don't think America has had a President that even compares to Cain. Really our wars, even the worst acts are done to limit as much life that is lost and end the war as quickly as possible. Even the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was done to prevent an even greater loss of life. If they hadn't worked, there would have been a ground invasion of Japan. We're still losing the Purple Heart medals that were made for the estimated number of soldiers who would have been harmed in battle. Not to mention the total number dead on both sides if it had happened. It was a terrible act, but it prevented an even worse act.

What Cain did was kill some people who did nothing wrong in order to continue a mission of revenge. She had no hope of surviving and even if she did, where would she go? The Colonies are nuked out wastelands with almost no survivors other than a few resistance fighters who would likely die from radiation exposure as soon as they ran out of medication. They could never take back the Colonies and survive there.
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Old April 5 2013, 03:16 AM   #207
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I don't think America has had a President that even compares to Cain. Really our wars, even the worst acts are done to limit as much life that is lost and end the war as quickly as possible. Even the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was done to prevent an even greater loss of life. If they hadn't worked, there would have been a ground invasion of Japan. We're still losing the Purple Heart medals that were made for the estimated number of soldiers who would have been harmed in battle. Not to mention the total number dead on both sides if it had happened. It was a terrible act, but it prevented an even worse act.

What Cain did was kill some people who did nothing wrong in order to continue a mission of revenge. She had no hope of surviving and even if she did, where would she go? The Colonies are nuked out wastelands with almost no survivors other than a few resistance fighters who would likely die from radiation exposure as soon as they ran out of medication. They could never take back the Colonies and survive there.
Okay we'll have to disagree on Cain's motives/potential to wage a guerrilla war. If her motive really was just a petty suicide mission for revenge and a guerrilla war wasn't feasible, of course she's an idiot. I think her motives were above board and she had a chance, but okay, I'll concede the point and discuss it no longer for sake of argument.

Lets say hypothetically, she had a feasible enough force to wage a guerrilla war with a chance for success, and she committed the actions she did. Would they be that different from the actions American Presidents have taken in the past during war?

Bush/Obama with the torture
Lincoln with the scorched Earth policy...destroying civilian homes, food and infrastructure
FDR imprisoning people based on ethnicity
And every President's action during war of grabbing more and more power

Despite these actions, FDR and Lincoln are lionized as the two best Presidents in the history of the United States.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 5 2013 at 03:28 AM.
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Old April 5 2013, 03:37 AM   #208
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I don't think America has had a President that even compares to Cain. Really our wars, even the worst acts are done to limit as much life that is lost and end the war as quickly as possible. Even the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was done to prevent an even greater loss of life. If they hadn't worked, there would have been a ground invasion of Japan. We're still losing the Purple Heart medals that were made for the estimated number of soldiers who would have been harmed in battle. Not to mention the total number dead on both sides if it had happened. It was a terrible act, but it prevented an even worse act.

What Cain did was kill some people who did nothing wrong in order to continue a mission of revenge. She had no hope of surviving and even if she did, where would she go? The Colonies are nuked out wastelands with almost no survivors other than a few resistance fighters who would likely die from radiation exposure as soon as they ran out of medication. They could never take back the Colonies and survive there.
Okay we'll have to disagree on Cain's motives/potential to wage a guerrilla war. If her motive really was just a petty suicide mission for revenge and a guerrilla war wasn't feasible, of course she's an idiot. I think her motives were above board and she had a chance, but okay, I'll concede the point and discuss it no longer for sake of argument.

Lets say hypothetically, she had a feasible enough force to wage a guerrilla war with a chance for success, and she committed the actions she did. Would they be that different from the actions American Presidents have taken in the past during war?

Bush/Obama with the torture
Lincoln with the scorched Earth policy...destroying civilian homes, food and infrastructure
FDR imprisoning people based on ethnicity
And every President's action during war of grabbing more and more power

Despite these actions, FDR and Lincoln are lionized as the two best Presidents in the history of the United States.
The difference is that they didn't kill citizens, the very people they are sworn to protect. Cain took a similar oath as an officer in the Colonial Fleet. It is her duty above all others to protect the people of the Colonies. She broke that oath in order to wage a losing war on the Cylons.

What does Presidents did was terrible, but it was done to protect the citizens and end the war as quickly as possible. That's the difference.
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Old April 5 2013, 03:58 AM   #209
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Lets say hypothetically, she had a feasible enough force to wage a guerrilla war with a chance for success, and she committed the actions she did. Would they be that different from the actions American Presidents have taken in the past during war?
Which American presidents explicitly ordered American children to not only stand against a firing squad, but also be executed as a means to coerce their American parents to serve in the military?
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Old April 5 2013, 04:44 AM   #210
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I don't think America has had a President that even compares to Cain. Really our wars, even the worst acts are done to limit as much life that is lost and end the war as quickly as possible. Even the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was done to prevent an even greater loss of life. If they hadn't worked, there would have been a ground invasion of Japan. We're still losing the Purple Heart medals that were made for the estimated number of soldiers who would have been harmed in battle. Not to mention the total number dead on both sides if it had happened. It was a terrible act, but it prevented an even worse act.

What Cain did was kill some people who did nothing wrong in order to continue a mission of revenge. She had no hope of surviving and even if she did, where would she go? The Colonies are nuked out wastelands with almost no survivors other than a few resistance fighters who would likely die from radiation exposure as soon as they ran out of medication. They could never take back the Colonies and survive there.
Okay we'll have to disagree on Cain's motives/potential to wage a guerrilla war. If her motive really was just a petty suicide mission for revenge and a guerrilla war wasn't feasible, of course she's an idiot. I think her motives were above board and she had a chance, but okay, I'll concede the point and discuss it no longer for sake of argument.

Lets say hypothetically, she had a feasible enough force to wage a guerrilla war with a chance for success, and she committed the actions she did. Would they be that different from the actions American Presidents have taken in the past during war?

Bush/Obama with the torture
Lincoln with the scorched Earth policy...destroying civilian homes, food and infrastructure
FDR imprisoning people based on ethnicity
And every President's action during war of grabbing more and more power

Despite these actions, FDR and Lincoln are lionized as the two best Presidents in the history of the United States.
The difference is that they didn't kill citizens, the very people they are sworn to protect. Cain took a similar oath as an officer in the Colonial Fleet. It is her duty above all others to protect the people of the Colonies. She broke that oath in order to wage a losing war on the Cylons.

What does Presidents did was terrible, but it was done to protect the citizens and end the war as quickly as possible. That's the difference.
Lincoln's scorched Earth resulted in a lot more citizen deaths than Cain's actions. He always considered the Confederacy to be indivisibly part of the Union even during the war so they were his own citizens that he did that to by his own standards (a lot of those citizens had nothing to do with the war and were just born in the wrong place). It might be more aseptic and indirect than Cain's actions in your eyes, but on the receiving end, the outcome and moral outrage is the same.

You call the actions by the Presidents terrible, but equivocate with the opinion they were done with "ending the war as quickly as possible" and "protecting the citizens". I grant you all the actions I listed could fall into one of the categories but none fall into both. They are also very broad and vague standards. Is it more justified to use morally questionable tactics when you are winning a war and trying to end it as quickly as possible vs. being on the side that is at a tactical disadvantage? Does this same standard apply if its an unsavory dictator that is winning the war and decides to end the war as quickly as possible for the same reason?

Or, does the perceived grand motive of the actor mitigate the morally questionable actions in your eyes? In the abstract this seems to be the general consensus in the eyes of history.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 5 2013 at 05:49 AM.
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