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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 31 2013, 05:10 PM   #31
Melakon
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

^And apparently Ambassador Fox had the power to send Scotty to a penal colony, with no mention of trial or court-martial.
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Old April 1 2013, 12:26 AM   #32
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Not to mention Ambassador Sarek's contention the Tellarite ships were caught carrying dilithium mined on Coridan. The Rigel miners withholding dilithium from a starship that was spiraling down over some women. The plan to conquer Organia before the Klingons could.

I never got the vibe in TOS that the Federation or its citizens were all that benevolent.
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Old April 1 2013, 01:20 PM   #33
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Melakon wrote: View Post
^And apparently Ambassador Fox had the power to send Scotty to a penal colony, with no mention of trial or court-martial.

Yeah, that was terrible when Scotty was gone to prison for all those years.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Not to mention Ambassador Sarek's contention the Tellarite ships were caught carrying dilithium mined on Coridan. The Rigel miners withholding dilithium from a starship that was spiraling down over some women. The plan to conquer Organia before the Klingons could.

I never got the vibe in TOS that the Federation or its citizens were all that benevolent.
Sending two men to negotiate with the ruling council is "conquering"?

The Tellerites were criminals, hence the "illegal" activity.

The miners were secluded and didn't feel beholden to Kirk showing up. Mudd complicated things, I think they may not have had a problem selling to Kirk if Mudd didn't start promising women.

So, based on about 400 people the billions of Federation citizens don't seem benevolent? I think your sample is too small for any judgements.

If you want something not benevolent, look at the institutionalized racism employed by the Stratos City Dwellers agains the Troglites. That, for me, hurts the Federation's image as a nice place to live more than anything you mentioned.
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Old April 1 2013, 05:50 PM   #34
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Marsden wrote: View Post

Sending two men to negotiate with the ruling council is "conquering"?

The Tellerites were criminals, hence the "illegal" activity.
If the Organians were the country bumpkins they originally appeared to be, what would've been their choices exactly? Either way they were going to be forced to give up their way of life as a strategic piece of real estate in a Federation-Klingon war.

Kirk was using the Klingons as a chip to force the Organians to side with the Federation and be "host" to Federation forces.

All Tellarites everywhere are criminals?
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Old April 1 2013, 06:51 PM   #35
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

BillJ wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post

Sending two men to negotiate with the ruling council is "conquering"?

The Tellerites were criminals, hence the "illegal" activity.
If the Organians were the country bumpkins they originally appeared to be, what would've been their choices exactly? Either way they were going to be forced to give up their way of life as a strategic piece of real estate in a Federation-Klingon war.

Kirk was using the Klingons as a chip to force the Organians to side with the Federation and be "host" to Federation forces.

All Tellarites everywhere are criminals?
Only the ones taking Coridan's crystals without paying any money to the Coridan government. Sarek's use of "Tellearite ships" is a standard monolithic/bigoted use of the word, as in all Tellarites are blustering fools that like to steal from someone. Not all Tellarites are thieves, but the Tellarite government may have been making enough on the crystal smuggling to look the other way. It's impossible to determine from the allegation as presented. My mistake is I should have said "The Tellarites in question were criminals, hence..."

What kind of occupation were you expecting the Orgainians to suffer from the Federation? Thousands, or even hundreds of red shirts wandering the alleyways forcing the Orgainians to give them ale? I disagree. I don't think the Organians were to be conquered. Offering a primitive people assistance would change their life, but their life is already changing due to the Klingon invasion.

However, if they (the Organians) were who they actually appeared to be it would have been a violation of the Prime Directive, as I don't think those sheep carts were warp powered.

Alternatively, if the Federation was only keeping Organia from the Klingons, the Enterprise could simply have bombarded the entire planet with photon torpedoes and possiblely fabricated cobalt bombs to rip away the atmosphere, thereby rendering it uninhabitale. And Kirk wouldn't have to negotiate that.
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Old April 3 2013, 11:34 PM   #36
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

thesadpanda wrote: View Post
The Federation has apparently renounced materialism
First let me say that is one of the most concise postings I've ever read.

I do think you get into a difficulty when you say that "The Federation," an organization with a population of upward of a trillion people and (with colonies) over a thousand inhabitable worlds, as apparently having done this, or really anything cultural as a collective group. The Vulcans as a group have embraced emotional control, but we see little sign that the Federation as a whole have copied them.

That one of the Federation's millions of societies may have renounced materialism, or that a certain idealogical group spread thinly across the Federation has turned their backs on materialism would be more reasonable.

Did James Kirk really need a large beautiful house for just himself and a female companion? On a piece of property big enought that no neighbors could be easily seen?

And that stolen warp driven yacht at the beginning of Way to Eden must have belong to someone.

The degree that the member people within the Federation engage in materialism likely runs the spectrum from basically non-existent through to all consuming purpose of life. Even Picard has that non-replicated first edition of Shakespearean plays in his ready room.

Marsden wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
And apparently Ambassador Fox had the power to send Scotty to a penal colony, with no mention of trial or court-martial.
Yeah, that was terrible when Scotty was gone to prison for all those years.
I believe the point Marsden, is that Fox should not have been able to credibly make the claim at all. Some government flunky shouldn't, on their personal say so, send a Starfleet officer into the prison system. Or even be able to make the threat, regardless if it wasn't carried out.

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Last edited by T'Girl; April 3 2013 at 11:44 PM.
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Old April 4 2013, 12:55 AM   #37
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
And apparently Ambassador Fox had the power to send Scotty to a penal colony, with no mention of trial or court-martial.
Yeah, that was terrible when Scotty was gone to prison for all those years.
I believe the point Marsden, is that Fox should not have been able to credibly make the claim at all. Some government flunky shouldn't, on their personal say so, send a Starfleet officer into the prison system. Or even be able to make the threat, regardless if it wasn't carried out.

I apologize for my flippant remark. I do not remember that, but I shall rewatch that episode shortly and will make a more proper remark. I simply do not remember him doing anything but trying to boss Scotty around.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:53 PM   #38
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Marsden wrote: View Post
I simply do not remember him doing anything but trying to boss Scotty around.
From www.chakoteya.net:

A Taste of Armageddon wrote:
FOX: You are taking orders from me. You will lower the screens as a sign of good faith. My authority.
SCOTT: I know about your authority, but the screens stay up.
MCCOY: Mister Fox, they faked a message from the Captain, they've launched an attack against our ship. Now you want us to trust them openly?
FOX: I want you and expect you to obey my lawful orders.
SCOTT: No, sir. I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your refusal to comply with my orders has endangered the entire success of this mission. I can have you sent to a penal colony for this.
SCOTT: That you can, sir, but I won't lower the screens.
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Old April 4 2013, 04:30 PM   #39
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Thank you, BillJ!

I realize why I didn't remember, bluster doesn't impress me, and that's what this is. Anyone that interprets those statements as legitimate legal power to imprison someone is a fool. It was a threat and nothing more. He could have brought charges against him once they reached starbase and a trial may have occured. Depending on the outcome of the trial, he may be sentenced to a penal colony, that is the meaning of the threat. He has authority to bring charges.
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Old April 4 2013, 04:37 PM   #40
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Marsden wrote: View Post
Thank you, BillJ!

I realize why I didn't remember, bluster doesn't impress me, and that's what this is. Anyone that interprets those statements as legitimate legal power to imprison someone is a fool. It was a threat and nothing more. He could have brought charges against him once they reached starbase and a trial may have occured. Depending on the outcome of the trial, he may be sentenced to a penal colony, that is the meaning of the threat. He has authority to bring charges.
You can interpret it any way you like, that's the beauty of Trek. But Scott didn't seem to disagree with what he was saying.
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Old April 4 2013, 07:17 PM   #41
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

BillJ wrote: View Post
You can interpret it any way you like, that's the beauty of Trek. But Scott didn't seem to disagree with what he was saying.

True. I think he wasn't moved enough to care, but that's just my opinion. I really want to rewatch that now, I like that episode.
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Old April 5 2013, 09:34 AM   #42
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

BillJ wrote: View Post
You can interpret it any way you like, that's the beauty of Trek. But Scott didn't seem to disagree with what he was saying.
Not only didn't Scotty disagree, he at some point relented and beamed Fox and his assistant down.

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Old April 5 2013, 12:35 PM   #43
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

To someone from 2000 years ago, or a 1000 years ago, or even a century ago, today's society would probably look inhumanly benevolent. I guess I too am an optimist. I think we sometimes take for granted how good we have it today and how much progress we've made over time.
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Old April 5 2013, 01:23 PM   #44
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

neozeks wrote: View Post
To someone from 2000 years ago, or a 1000 years ago, or even a century ago, today's society would probably look inhumanly benevolent. I guess I too am an optimist. I think we sometimes take for granted how good we have it today and how much progress we've made over time.

I agree, great point.

Also, I really like your avatar, I need a better one.
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Old April 5 2013, 01:30 PM   #45
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Re: Federation is inhumanly benevolent

Marsden wrote: View Post

Also, I really like your avatar, I need a better one.
I like yours but the red shirt has the wrong type of phaser so it cannot be considered canon.
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