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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 4 2013, 03:09 AM   #151
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Cain was mainly concerned with attacking the Cylons and keeping the Pegasus going. The rest of humanity were either needed to achieve this or obstacles, ones that she had no problem removing. If her chief goal was to keep the human race alive, then the Pegasus would have had its own fleet. While wiping out the Cylons can be seen as a worthy goal and would save what's left of humanity, she was clearly more focused on taking out the Cylons even if the human race went extinct in the process.
Her goal wasn't to wipe out the Cylons. It was to fight a smart guerrilla war with the goal of taking back their home, Caprica. The whole revenge thing was a rah-rah speech to get the troops going after they learned of the genocide. In the next scene, she states her real goal.
Based on what? She was clearly willing to manipulate people to achieve her goals, having Starbuck on her side would be a big win for her. Another soldier willing to die for the cause, all because she thinks she'll get to go home and save her boyfriend. Never realizing that Cain only wanted to kill as many Cylons as she could. If she wanted to take back the Colonies, not that a single Battlestar ever could. That's why Adama was talked out of the same thing, it's a suicide mission and he realized it.
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Old April 4 2013, 03:51 AM   #152
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Cain was mainly concerned with attacking the Cylons and keeping the Pegasus going. The rest of humanity were either needed to achieve this or obstacles, ones that she had no problem removing. If her chief goal was to keep the human race alive, then the Pegasus would have had its own fleet. While wiping out the Cylons can be seen as a worthy goal and would save what's left of humanity, she was clearly more focused on taking out the Cylons even if the human race went extinct in the process.
Her goal wasn't to wipe out the Cylons. It was to fight a smart guerrilla war with the goal of taking back their home, Caprica. The whole revenge thing was a rah-rah speech to get the troops going after they learned of the genocide. In the next scene, she states her real goal.
Based on what? She was clearly willing to manipulate people to achieve her goals, having Starbuck on her side would be a big win for her. Another soldier willing to die for the cause, all because she thinks she'll get to go home and save her boyfriend. Never realizing that Cain only wanted to kill as many Cylons as she could. If she wanted to take back the Colonies, not that a single Battlestar ever could. That's why Adama was talked out of the same thing, it's a suicide mission and he realized it.
She doesn't have a history of manipulating people. Her style is more "my way or the highway" vs. manipulation. And her stating Caprica/the other colonies was her ultimate goal wasn't contingent on rescuing survivors when she told Starbuck that it was her ultimate goal. Home was always her ultimate goal.

The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 4 2013 at 04:03 AM.
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Old April 4 2013, 04:27 AM   #153
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.

What you seem to be missing is that the Cylons could have beaten her through the simple expedience of applying the Zap Brannigan school of warfare. That is to say, they could have just thrown baseships at her until she ran out of bullets.

Logistics matter. Your guns and bombs and fighters and soldiers have to come from somewhere. The Cylons had factories and they were immortal clones. They essentially have an arbitrarily large population base and arbitrarily large manufacturing capability to go with it. You can't guerrilla that, not without outside support.
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Old April 4 2013, 05:14 AM   #154
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post

Her goal wasn't to wipe out the Cylons. It was to fight a smart guerrilla war with the goal of taking back their home, Caprica. The whole revenge thing was a rah-rah speech to get the troops going after they learned of the genocide. In the next scene, she states her real goal.
Based on what? She was clearly willing to manipulate people to achieve her goals, having Starbuck on her side would be a big win for her. Another soldier willing to die for the cause, all because she thinks she'll get to go home and save her boyfriend. Never realizing that Cain only wanted to kill as many Cylons as she could. If she wanted to take back the Colonies, not that a single Battlestar ever could. That's why Adama was talked out of the same thing, it's a suicide mission and he realized it.
She doesn't have a history of manipulating people. Her style is more "my way or the highway" vs. manipulation. And her stating Caprica/the other colonies was her ultimate goal wasn't contingent on rescuing survivors when she told Starbuck that it was her ultimate goal. Home was always her ultimate goal.

The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
She was trying to manipulate Starbuck the whole time she was on the ship and seemed to have way more control over the crew of Pegasus than Adama did over Galactica's crew. The fact that she would kill anyone who disagreed with her certainly helped.

Also there were no others. The entire Colonial Fleet used Baltar's program and were disabled during the attack. Pegasus survived because it was temporarily down and Galactica survived due to Adama refusing to allow computer networks on the ship. Also she abandoned any other ship they found after taking what she needed. If not for the Galactica and possibly Adama's glare she would have done the same to the rest of the fleet. If you find survivors and you leave them to die from the very enemy you're fighting, survival isn't the plan. She wanted to take down as many Cylons as she could before dying. She may have some deep rooted psychological issues given the scene of her as a child during the war.

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.

What you seem to be missing is that the Cylons could have beaten her through the simple expedience of applying the Zap Brannigan school of warfare. That is to say, they could have just thrown baseships at her until she ran out of bullets.

Logistics matter. Your guns and bombs and fighters and soldiers have to come from somewhere. The Cylons had factories and they were immortal clones. They essentially have an arbitrarily large population base and arbitrarily large manufacturing capability to go with it. You can't guerrilla that, not without outside support.
That kind of fighting only makes sense if you cause enough damage to keep the enemy want to stop, due to it not being worth it. They keep losing soldiers and wasting resources on a war where the other side refuse to surrender. The Cylons would never be worried about that. They're immortal and were completely convinced that wiping out the entire human race was their purpose in life. That isn't the kind of enemy that is just going to give up because a single ship is randomly attacking Basestars.
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Old April 4 2013, 05:32 AM   #155
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Based on what? She was clearly willing to manipulate people to achieve her goals, having Starbuck on her side would be a big win for her. Another soldier willing to die for the cause, all because she thinks she'll get to go home and save her boyfriend. Never realizing that Cain only wanted to kill as many Cylons as she could. If she wanted to take back the Colonies, not that a single Battlestar ever could. That's why Adama was talked out of the same thing, it's a suicide mission and he realized it.
She doesn't have a history of manipulating people. Her style is more "my way or the highway" vs. manipulation. And her stating Caprica/the other colonies was her ultimate goal wasn't contingent on rescuing survivors when she told Starbuck that it was her ultimate goal. Home was always her ultimate goal.

The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
She was trying to manipulate Starbuck the whole time she was on the ship and seemed to have way more control over the crew of Pegasus than Adama did over Galactica's crew. The fact that she would kill anyone who disagreed with her certainly helped.

Also there were no others. The entire Colonial Fleet used Baltar's program and were disabled during the attack. Pegasus survived because it was temporarily down and Galactica survived due to Adama refusing to allow computer networks on the ship. Also she abandoned any other ship they found after taking what she needed. If not for the Galactica and possibly Adama's glare she would have done the same to the rest of the fleet. If you find survivors and you leave them to die from the very enemy you're fighting, survival isn't the plan. She wanted to take down as many Cylons as she could before dying. She may have some deep rooted psychological issues given the scene of her as a child during the war.

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.

What you seem to be missing is that the Cylons could have beaten her through the simple expedience of applying the Zap Brannigan school of warfare. That is to say, they could have just thrown baseships at her until she ran out of bullets.

Logistics matter. Your guns and bombs and fighters and soldiers have to come from somewhere. The Cylons had factories and they were immortal clones. They essentially have an arbitrarily large population base and arbitrarily large manufacturing capability to go with it. You can't guerrilla that, not without outside support.
That kind of fighting only makes sense if you cause enough damage to keep the enemy want to stop, due to it not being worth it. They keep losing soldiers and wasting resources on a war where the other side refuse to surrender. The Cylons would never be worried about that. They're immortal and were completely convinced that wiping out the entire human race was their purpose in life. That isn't the kind of enemy that is just going to give up because a single ship is randomly attacking Basestars.
The fact the Cylons let Cain live as long as they did shows they didn't see her as a viable threat. Had she been a real threat, she'd jumped into a "raid" only to be blown out of the stars within the first couple minutes of the battle.
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Old April 4 2013, 06:26 AM   #156
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.
False. Look no further than our current situation in Afghanistan. The only support the Taliban is getting is pretty limited support from Pakistan's ISI (their intelligence service...should note in fairness to Pakistan, they will call these false allegations and outrageous). They've fought the US to a stalemate over the course of 12 years. In the long game...the US will withdraw in 2014, experts say chances are good of a Taliban takeover.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 4 2013 at 06:38 AM.
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Old April 4 2013, 08:02 AM   #157
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.
False. Look no further than our current situation in Afghanistan. The only support the Taliban is getting is pretty limited support from Pakistan's ISI (their intelligence service...should note in fairness to Pakistan, they will call these false allegations and outrageous). They've fought the US to a stalemate over the course of 12 years. In the long game...the US will withdraw in 2014, experts say chances are good of a Taliban takeover.
It's because we've wasted over a trillion dollars in that war, killed or maimed too many of our soldiers and over a decade for a hellhole that no army in history has been able to control and never will.

We probably wouldn't have this problem if we were immortal robots, used nukes like bullets and thought we will doing the will of God to wipe them out instead of installing democracy.

The situations are as far apart as shit can get.
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Old April 4 2013, 10:37 AM   #158
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Next week on scifi villain apologism: "carter burke: not that bad really".

Registering on a forum just to take an obviously unpopular stance and argue lots? I think we're being played.
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Old April 4 2013, 11:17 AM   #159
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

though as randomfan seems to have ignored my last posts i'm going to declare victory!

how many times can you use 'but adama and starbuck said something that one time so it justifies everything' anyway?

i guess when your entire arguement is contradicted by everything onscreen you have to cling to the tiniest thing.

also this thread doesn't have enough Dick Cheney. He may be a psychotic war criminal, but at least he didn't order rape-torture against an ex-lover. good old dick.
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Old April 4 2013, 11:59 AM   #160
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Stoo wrote: View Post
Next week on scifi villain apologism: "carter burke: not that bad really".

Registering on a forum just to take an obviously unpopular stance and argue lots? I think we're being played.
Once again, there is no need to question my motives. I am new to the forum, yes, but she is my favorite and has been getting a lot of crap from fans. People have a myopic view of her.
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Old April 4 2013, 12:18 PM   #161
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
though as randomfan seems to have ignored my last posts i'm going to declare victory!

how many times can you use 'but adama and starbuck said something that one time so it justifies everything' anyway?

i guess when your entire arguement is contradicted by everything onscreen you have to cling to the tiniest thing.

also this thread doesn't have enough Dick Cheney. He may be a psychotic war criminal, but at least he didn't order rape-torture against an ex-lover. good old dick.
You can declare victory all you want; clearly none has been acheived. You tend to make one line statements so I might've missed your posts while trying to answer the longer thought out arguments. Your last one liner said "her personal motive was to take out the cylons". Her personal motive was to take on the cylons in smart guerilla war, with the goal of taking back their home.

And yes, good ole' Dick Cheney and the US of A. Ordered the torture of at least 50 individuals. Also ordered the rendition of many others (giving meaner intelligence agencies custody of our combatants so they could do harsher torture including RAPE!!). Add FDR with his internments and Lincoln with his scorched earth strategy both of which made what Cain did look like child's play. But I guess none of them tortured of one of their ex-lover who also happened to be guilty of genocide unlike someone else we know
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Old April 4 2013, 12:22 PM   #162
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

ok where onscreen was this 'smart guerilla war' depicted?

it isn't.

because it only exists in your head

so some real world leaders have done worse stuff, Nelson mandela never committed any atrocities. compare her to him for a change. she comes out bad then.

its an exact equivalent to your comparison of those leaders, before you comeback with 'false equivilancy' again.
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Last edited by Wintertainment; April 4 2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old April 4 2013, 12:36 PM   #163
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post

Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.
False. Look no further than our current situation in Afghanistan. The only support the Taliban is getting is pretty limited support from Pakistan's ISI (their intelligence service...should note in fairness to Pakistan, they will call these false allegations and outrageous). They've fought the US to a stalemate over the course of 12 years. In the long game...the US will withdraw in 2014, experts say chances are good of a Taliban takeover.
It's because we've wasted over a trillion dollars in that war, killed or maimed too many of our soldiers and over a decade for a hellhole that no army in history has been able to control and never will.

We probably wouldn't have this problem if we were immortal robots, used nukes like bullets and thought we will doing the will of God to wipe them out instead of installing democracy.

The situations are as far apart as shit can get.
Your conclusion is based on the premise that the other side wouldn't also have advanced weapons which is false. Also, they are not immortal and can die if they wish to continue a fruitless fight from long distance.
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Old April 4 2013, 12:43 PM   #164
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
ok where onscreen was this 'smart guerilla war' depicted?

it isn't.

because it only exists in your head

so some real world leaders have done worse stuff, Nelson mandela never committed any atrocities. compare her to him for a change. she comes out bad then.

its an exact equivalent to your comparison of those leaders, before you comeback with 'false equivilancy' again.
On screen, destroying the Resurrection Ship. Cain after discovering Starbuck's competence promotes her and tasks her to create a mission-plan to destroy it and approves the plan. She commanded the mission and the mission is a rousing success with the resurrection ship destroyed.

Its said in Pegasus that they were stalking the resurrection ship for awhile waiting for the right moment to ambush when they ran into Galactica.

At the end of Razor Adama, after studying the totality of Cain's tactics declares he cannot find fault with any of the tacitics Cain used. Starbuck declares the fleet is less safe without her. Pretty much everyone on the Pegasus agree with this statement. This last point takes care of all the various gaps that the on-screen time doesn't provide us.
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Old April 4 2013, 12:49 PM   #165
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
ok where onscreen was this 'smart guerilla war' depicted?

it isn't.

because it only exists in your head

so some real world leaders have done worse stuff, Nelson mandela never committed any atrocities. compare her to him for a change. she comes out bad then.

its an exact equivalent to your comparison of those leaders, before you comeback with 'false equivilancy' again.
Cool, you can have Mandella, Mother Theresa, and Ghandi leading your war. I'll take FDR, Lincoln and Cain..,you can keep the change.
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