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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 4 2013, 12:53 AM   #136
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
It's also worth pointing out that Starbuck is hardly a good judge of character, so relying on her word that the fleet was 'less safe' with Cain gone doesn't hold much water.
I could be wrong, but didn't Starbuck also have a personal stake in trusting Cain, namely that Cain was planning to take the fleet back to Caprica to rescue Anders and the resistance fighters?

It's not like Starbuck was looking at Cain objectively.
She always wanted to take back Caprica. So did Adama. I believe her statement and Adama's statement at the end of Razor were meant to vindicate Cain.
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Old April 4 2013, 12:58 AM   #137
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

The Stig wrote: View Post
It's also worth pointing out that Starbuck is hardly a good judge of character, so relying on her word that the fleet was 'less safe' with Cain gone doesn't hold much water.

Cain was intended to be what Adama would have become without Roslin. It's all there in the miniseries and the coup in Season 1: he was set to leave the civilians to die at Ragnar so he could go out in a blaze of glory, fighting a hopeless battle. Given his tendencies towards authoritarianism, he could have very easily gone down the path of raiding civilian vessels for military needs.

As others have mentioned, BSG was about what it meant to be 'worthy' of survival. How much can and should we give up of ourselves in the face of horror and disaster? Cain failed her test soundly from the show's POV. It takes a fairly slanted reading to get anywhere close to admiration for her or her actions. Her treatment of her former lover in and of itself is more than enough evidence that Cain was motivated not by military need but petty revenge for being duped by a skinjob.
She became ruthless before the personal betrayal. So I'm inclined to believe it didn't have a part in it. "Worthy of survival"...that was in reference to Adama killing Cain. Cain was about to kill Adama, but she did not either. When she saw how successful a collabotartive effort between the two ships could be in taking out the Cylons, she chose not to take Adama out. That indicates it was more about taking out the Cylons than any personal motives.
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Old April 4 2013, 01:01 AM   #138
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

her personal motive was taking out the cylons
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Old April 4 2013, 01:02 AM   #139
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote:
You know who else aided and abetted a genocide? Admiral Cain, by murdering civilians, crippling their ships and abandoning them to die,
That isn't genocide. Genocide is the systematic destruction of a race.
Yes, which is what the Cylons were doing to humans. Did you miss the part where I said she "aided and abetted" a genocide, not committed a genocide herself?

Getting a third of her crew killed in an obvious trap after already losing 700 people in the initial Cylon attack on the shipyards, permitting the murder of civilians by her crew directly, breaking up families who would have much needed children to continue the species, and leaving the civilian fleet crippled and vulnerable to Cylon attack were all things that benefited the Cylon's goal of the destruction of humanity.

She lacked the intent to commit genocide against her own species, but she sure as hell helped the process along.

Cain wanted to protect humans.
I miss BSG since it went off the air. Can I borrow the version you watched? I love alternate scenes, and it seems whatever you watched was entirely made up of them, because what you describe is the exact opposite of what she did in the version I saw.
Adama has said he cannot find anything tactically wrong with what she did when fighting the Cylons. Cain did want to protect humans. Pretty much every character acknowledges they owe their lives to her. Starbuck says they are less safe without her, and Adama tacitly agrees at the end of Razor.
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Old April 4 2013, 01:03 AM   #140
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

so wheres the evidence for 'cain did want to protect humans'? there's none onscreen and you've repeatedly made that statement
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Old April 4 2013, 01:10 AM   #141
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Let us not try to impugn the motives of those we disagree with.
Oh, I shall impugn, sir. I'll impugn as much as I want. In fact, I'm impugning right now. What, are we supposed to worry about hurting the fictional feelings of the fictional megalomaniac murderer?

You're acting like she's being tried before the space Hague or something.

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Adama has said he cannot find anything tactically wrong with what she did when fighting the Cylons. Cain did want to protect humans. Pretty much every character acknowledges they owe their lives to her. Starbuck says they are less safe without her, and Adama tacitly agrees at the end of Razor.
Just keep repeating that Adama line as if it's an actual argument. He's capable of being wrong. He was wrong on many occasions. I demonstrated with a list of terrible tactical decisions she made why he was wrong about her. Why not address those instead of repeating that line again?

Starbuck said it at a funeral in front of the Pegasus crew which they were trying to integrate into Galactica's command structure at the time. What do you expect her to say? "Cain was a nutjob and I'm glad she's dead"?

You keep coming back to Adama and Starbuck after Cain's death, but what about Roslin and Lee? Or Adama before she died when she was a menace to him and his crew?

And again, who did she protect? I want factual examples, not Starbuck's hypothetical.
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Old April 4 2013, 01:12 AM   #142
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

i so want to go the Space Hague! and see all the Space Dutch!

although if i was a Space Criminal, i think i'd want a new Space Lawyer
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Old April 4 2013, 01:54 AM   #143
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
I demonstrated with a list of terrible tactical decisions she made why he was wrong about her. Why not address those instead of repeating that line again?
Because he can do the latter and not the former.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:01 AM   #144
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Cain did want to protect humans.
In which case, considering the body count she left behind, she was a miserable failure. So not only were her methods indefensible, so were her results.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:05 AM   #145
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
You know who else aided and abetted a genocide? Admiral Cain, by murdering civilians, crippling their ships and abandoning them to die, separating families who could be having more children, and pursuing a hopeless war of vengeance that already got a third of her crew killed and would have killed the rest had it kept going.
False equivalency. What Cain did was part of a strategy overall to eventually defeat the Cylons. The Cylons were the one's who decided to commit genocide including the Cylon she was torturing.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
It was as much about getting revenge on the Cylon woman who hurt and deceived her as it was about getting information. Probably an element of embarrassment at being tricked since she's a raging egomaniac as well.

And torture is wrong regardless of who uses it. It doesn't become okay just because you consider yourselves the good guys. Everyone considers themselves the good guys.
No, her really ruthless actions started before she was betrayed so its more likely that it played a minimal role in her motives. She was ruthless in every aspect of waging war. I never said it made it "okay". I do not condone or condemn anything she has done. I have purposely tried to avoid any moral judgements in this thread. I am merely putting Cain in the context of war. Everyone in war has used torture, Cain limited it to one person, while the US tortured over 50 individuals.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Raiding the ships for parts and personnel has nothing to do with scorched Earth warfare, it was about prolonging her pointless vengeance war and being a sociopath who doesn't care about how her actions affect others.

As you say, scorched Earth is about denying the enemy resources, either by destroying their resources if you're on the offensive (Sherman's March to the Sea) or destroying your resources if you're on the defensive (the USSR during the German invasion). But the Cylon's weren't interested in taking human resources and tech, they were interested in killing all humans at that point. So your comparison to scorched Earth warfare makes no sense. Nor does your defense of Cain's strategy and tactics, since she was so blinded by hate that she actually aided the Cylons in their goal of destroying humanity.

So, yeah, I'll judge her harshly.
The comparison make sense in that a lot of people consider both "immoral actions". Scorched Earth purposely destroys civilian infrastructure and food. It kills civilians.. Cain stripped the civilian ships for parts she needed. One is destruction for the purpose of making the enemy submit...one is scavanging for parts...in both instances I doubt the civilian gives a damn when he is dying. In fact, on balance if you pressed the civilian on which was worse, it might be an enemy army purposely destroying their life lines vs. a supporting army stripping them for resources..

If you're going to judge her harshly that I assume you'll debate a black person today when they tell you Lincoln was right in doing what she did.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The fact that Adama and Starbuck complimented Cain keeps getting mentioned as if that should close out the argument or something.

First of all, since when are Adama and Starbuck unimpeachable paragons of virtue? They've both done some pretty morally questionable things themselves. Nothing even close to being on par with what Cain did, but their hands certainly aren't clean, nor are they infallible.

Secondly, it's a lot easier to judge someone less harshly when she's dead and no longer a constant threat hanging over you and your crew.
That's a good thing, it gives you a dispassionate view of things. In terms of how literature works, they provided the last scenes about Cain in the show and movie respectively. The main characters (including the whole Pegasus crew) ultimately vindicating her upon reflection should add a lot of weight to how we should think of them. I think that's what the writers were trying to convey.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Thirdly, they were trying to integrate a hostile crew who had nearly been in a firefight with them days earlier into their command structure. Badmouthing their former commander at her funeral doesn't seem like a great way of building a bridge between the crews, especially since that hostility still existed two years later and boiled over into mutiny for many of them.

Lee is self-righteous for rightly pointing out that Kendra Shaw was a murderer? Jesus Christ.
I think Starbuck and Adama's reflections were genuine. Especially Adama as he was speaking to Lee in a very candid moment without pretense. He was trying to give Lee sage advice as he moved forward as a commander. And yes, Adama smacked down Lee in that scene for being naive and self righteous. He knew a leader couldn't afford to be either during war and that Kendra Shaw was ultimately an asset. That whole scene was a vindication of Cain and her protege Shaw.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Fighting for what home? Their home was destroyed. The two ragtag fleets were all they had left to call home, and Cain crippled hers and left them to die. How did she fight for them?

In case you forgot, at first Earth was just something Adama said to give the people hope and keep them pacified until he could figure something out. It was only later that the search for it became serious when they started finding clues. The goal initially was just to get clear of the Cylons and possibly find a habitable planet to settle on where they might start over again. Adama and Roslin were fighting for a home, in the form of saving the surviving humans of the fleet and rebuilding their society. Cain was fighting for pointless vengeance.

So, yeah, I will judge her for that. Her tactics and strategy were stupid, pointless, and immoral.
No, Cain was fighting a smart guerrilla war to retake Caprica. The house might've been destroyed but the home was still there.

In the context of the universe, the odds might not have been as bleak as you portray. If Cain were still alive, commanding both the Pegasus and Galactica engaging in a guerrilla war, I don't think the odds are as bleak as you portray as displayed by their one successful collaboration with her in command of both. Adama acknowledged her tactics engaging in this type of warfare were pretty flawless. They might have run into other Battlestars that survived. Too much to hope for? Perhaps but many guerrilla warriors in the past didn't give up in the face of long odds and ultimately suceeded against superpowers.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
You know, Godwin's Law doesn't really apply when you're discussing things that Hitler and the Nazis actually did, like committing war crimes and genocide. It's not meant to be a ban on mentioning Hitler or the Nazis even when they're relevant to the discussion.

Also, repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it so. You've done that a lot.
Making Hitler comparisons is pointless and degrades the conversation. You can go ahead and defend it, but I make it a practice to ignore such intellectual laziness.

You guys are the ones repeating the arguments. I have a similar response to those arguments each time.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
It's not a strawman if that's an actual argument you've been making throughout the thread, which it is. You've been an apologist for her war crimes throughout the thread based on the flimsiest of reasons, such as (paraphrasing) "other countries have done it, so it's okay" "Adama complimented her tactics, so it's okay," "if your people approve of you, rape and torture are defensible," and "she was fighting a guerrilla war, so the ends justify the means."
Sigh once again straw-manning me to death. As I've said, in this thread I am merely putting Cain in context. I don't think I've made any personal moral judgements on any actions i.e. "this is morally okay." I am merely saying in the context of war many leaders that are lionized (FDR, Park, Lincoln) have done actions that have caused more harm than Cain did.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
She left thousands of her own people to die when the entirety of the human species was only measured in the thousands itself (and even less from her perspective than from others since she didn't know about the Adama/Roslin ragtag fleet). That is unforgivable, and certainly not "pretty mild" in any context.

That's a pretty repugnant viewpoint. Just because something's legal at the time doesn't always make it right. Justifying FDR's racist internment of innocent Japanese-Americans simply because it was found to be constitutional is disgusting.
I never said anything about some action being "right" or "wrong" just because someone else did it. These are damn straw-men. I am once again just bringing up those examples to put Cain in the context of war. And yes, what she did was pretty mild in comparison to scorched earth, internment, and Park's torture/oppression in Korea. I also bring up the US Constitution to show that during war, the constitution gives the executive a lot of power.

[quote]Why do you keep calling her tactically competent? She walked into an obvious trap on the Cylon relay and was so blinded by rage that she continued the attack anyway and wound up losing a third of her crew.

I call her tactically flawless because Adama admitted as much. In the context of the universe that might've been the right move to go forward. The viewer can only rely on Adama's analysis of it.

She murdered the only officer willing to stand up to her, thus scaring everyone else into submission and making sure she would never get an honest assessment of a battle plan or her orders again.

She was willing to go to war with her own people over her favorite rapist accidentally being killed.
Summary execution for public insubordination during battle and potential inciting of mutiny was the right call in my opinion. Dude, they killed one of her officers. Cain is even-handed, she was willing to kill her best friend and XO for insubordination so she wasn't treating them any differently. She is heavy-handed with everyone with regard to discipline. Given her circumstances, I don't think harsh discipline is out of line. I suspect Colonel Tigh would've been disciplined harshly if he came to work drunk on the Pegasus. That's just how Cain is.

She left a third of what was left of the human species at that point to die at the hands of the Cylons so she could pursue a vengeance war that could never possibly be won.

Not only was she morally bankrupt, she was an idiot.

Mind you, this is no reflection on Michelle Forbes or her performance, which was superb.
Agree on Forbes...probably the only thing we agree on .

Like I've mentioned previously the odds might be long, but they were deemed long for many guerrilla forces throughout history, but a good chunk of them succeeded. Fighting for your home isn't a stupid cause.

One would think those things should disqualify you from being a "good leader," but hey, what do I know?
FDR, Park, and Lincoln are all considered good leaders by their people who are clearly willing to overlook their so called morally dubious actions.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 4 2013 at 04:30 AM.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:09 AM   #146
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Let us not try to impugn the motives of those we disagree with.
Oh, I shall impugn, sir. I'll impugn as much as I want. In fact, I'm impugning right now. What, are we supposed to worry about hurting the fictional feelings of the fictional megalomaniac murderer?
I meant impugning my motives because I had a different opinion than most in this thread. Adama said context matters in everything and that is what I'm trying to provide in this thread.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:12 AM   #147
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain was mainly concerned with attacking the Cylons and keeping the Pegasus going. The rest of humanity were either needed to achieve this or obstacles, ones that she had no problem removing. If her chief goal was to keep the human race alive, then the Pegasus would have had its own fleet. While wiping out the Cylons can be seen as a worthy goal and would save what's left of humanity, she was clearly more focused on taking out the Cylons even if the human race went extinct in the process.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:24 AM   #148
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Cain was mainly concerned with attacking the Cylons and keeping the Pegasus going. The rest of humanity were either needed to achieve this or obstacles, ones that she had no problem removing. If her chief goal was to keep the human race alive, then the Pegasus would have had its own fleet. While wiping out the Cylons can be seen as a worthy goal and would save what's left of humanity, she was clearly more focused on taking out the Cylons even if the human race went extinct in the process.
Her goal wasn't to wipe out the Cylons. It was to fight a smart guerrilla war with the goal of taking back their home, Caprica. The whole revenge thing was a rah-rah speech to get the troops going after they learned of the genocide. In the next scene, she states her real goal.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:38 AM   #149
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain didn't care one whit about retaking Caprica until Starbuck told her there were survivors. Even then, it's probable she just told Starbuck what she wanted to hear in order to gain Starbuck's cooperation and have an ally within Adama's command.

Cain wasn't playing some long game that ended with the reconquest of the Colonies and the destruction of the Cylon race. She was only concerned with fighting the Cylons to the last (wo)man, and in a war of attrition, one battlestar versus the entire Cylon civilization is simply suicide.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:43 AM   #150
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

stj wrote: View Post
My post gave reasons to believe that other people could have and would have implemented the same policies without the dictatorship. Your posts either assume that Park is responsible or cite some unknown subjects who consider Park a great leader. And I gave a good reason for that so-called opinion, the desire for war to reunify Korea on some southern leaders' preferred terms.

Since this is one of your key points, the inability to even attempt a refutations strongly suggests you're dead wrong. The Park example does not support you. Nor does the Cheney example. You may be correct that the show itself insists that Cain is not just a villain whose demise we are to cheer. At least, no one seems to have argued that point successfully. But what the show thinks is irrelevant to what we decide is right in the real world, and anyone has the right to apply the same reasoning to their opinion of a fictional character.
The opinion of the SK people is all the matters to my argument and what they think of him. They think highly of him, that is a fact not an opinion. They democratically elected his daughter their first woman President (very paternalistic society). Whether the economic boon was directly due to him or not, it was under his watch and they give him credit, and are willing to overlook his torture/oppression/murder. That is the most relevant point to my argument.

I am not following your going to war/reunification of Korea line of reasoning.

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