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Old April 3 2013, 02:27 PM   #106
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

stj wrote: View Post
PS As to the supposition that the dictator Park was responsible for the south's economic development? It is a dubious idea. Park was not the first dictator in the south, but Syngman Rhee didn't spark an economic boom. As an alternative hypothesis, let me suggest that the US military spending on the Vietnam War, much of which was necessarily spent in East Asia generally, was more likely to have played a key role. Japan's similar economic speed up in economic development without the supposed benefits of dictatorship in roughly the same period strongly suggests this was more important. Korean chaebol were modeled on Japanese zaibatsu and Korean economic policy as I understood it were similarly modeled on Japanese economic policy. None were the creations of dictators.

May I further suggest that the desire to retroactively rehabilitate Park has more to do with justifying a war in Korea than historical truth? (If you say I cna't, just unread this question!)
Park was the one who implemented and managed the policies and his people are the ones who give him credit for the success that was generated by it. Over 10% growth for more than a decade. He is considered a great leader.

My point of mentioning Park is that he also tortured/oppressed/murdered his own people but since he was considered to be a great leader, for the SK people: the good outweighed the bad. So it should be for Cain.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:32 PM   #107
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

and how is that relevant to cains situation in any way?

she may have been crazy, but boy did the pegasus have a good economy!
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Old April 3 2013, 02:34 PM   #108
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
and how is that relevant to cains situation in any way?

she may have been crazy, but boy did the pegasus have a good economy!
how is what relavent? My point is that the torture/oppression/murder can be overlooked if you have a good leader.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:39 PM   #109
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

so how was she this 'good leader? the torture/oppression/murder bit kind of ruins that

she was only leader because under the circumstances there was no way to get rid of her
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Old April 3 2013, 03:03 PM   #110
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
and how is that relevant to cains situation in any way?

she may have been crazy, but boy did the pegasus have a good economy!
how is what relavent? My point is that the torture/oppression/murder can be overlooked if you have a good leader.
Right and wrong are still right and wrong no matter whether someone is held accountable for their crimes.

Saying "Cain did no worse than other military/political leaders" is meaningless, because when they did it, it was wrong, too.

Just because some human rights violators get away with it doesn't mean they didn't violate anyone's rights.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:07 PM   #111
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
and how is that relevant to cains situation in any way?

she may have been crazy, but boy did the pegasus have a good economy!
how is what relavent? My point is that the torture/oppression/murder can be overlooked if you have a good leader.
No it gets overlooked for ideological differences. Leaders (dictators) like park and Pinochet are supported not because of what they did but the political stances they took I.e they are still admired today because of their oppression of those on the political left.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:54 PM   #112
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Marc wrote: View Post

No it gets overlooked for ideological differences. Leaders (dictators) like park and Pinochet are supported not because of what they did but the political stances they took I.e they are still admired today because of their oppression of those on the political left.
Or hated for that reason - let's be balanced here
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Old April 3 2013, 06:02 PM   #113
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

diankra wrote: View Post
Marc wrote: View Post

No it gets overlooked for ideological differences. Leaders (dictators) like park and Pinochet are supported not because of what they did but the political stances they took I.e they are still admired today because of their oppression of those on the political left.
Or hated for that reason - let's be balanced here
that would defeat the purpose.

Pak is being held up an example of some-one how used Cain-like tactics i.e brutality and is supposedly still respected for what he turned South Korea into.

But that respect would only really come from those who shared his ideology (same a Pinochet was supported and admired till his death by Reagan and Thatcher for anti-communist stance). The rest deplore him for his atrocities the same same as Cain is deplored for her behavior no matter what what victories she might have acehived.

Her summary execution of the her XO is again something out of a dictatorial regieme. Sure even in the U.S armed services you might get the death penalty for such an act, it's not you're going to get court martial and the right to be heard.

In fact it's more likely Cain who would have ended up in the daggit shit for her actions and that the XO was right in refusing to carry out her orders.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:16 PM   #114
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
PS As to the supposition that the dictator Park was responsible for the south's economic development? It is a dubious idea. Park was not the first dictator in the south, but Syngman Rhee didn't spark an economic boom. As an alternative hypothesis, let me suggest that the US military spending on the Vietnam War, much of which was necessarily spent in East Asia generally, was more likely to have played a key role. Japan's similar economic speed up in economic development without the supposed benefits of dictatorship in roughly the same period strongly suggests this was more important. Korean chaebol were modeled on Japanese zaibatsu and Korean economic policy as I understood it were similarly modeled on Japanese economic policy. None were the creations of dictators.

May I further suggest that the desire to retroactively rehabilitate Park has more to do with justifying a war in Korea than historical truth? (If you say I cna't, just unread this question!)
Park was the one who implemented and managed the policies and his people are the ones who give him credit for the success that was generated by it. Over 10% growth for more than a decade. He is considered a great leader.

My point of mentioning Park is that he also tortured/oppressed/murdered his own people but since he was considered to be a great leader, for the SK people: the good outweighed the bad. So it should be for Cain.
My post gave reasons to believe that other people could have and would have implemented the same policies without the dictatorship. Your posts either assume that Park is responsible or cite some unknown subjects who consider Park a great leader. And I gave a good reason for that so-called opinion, the desire for war to reunify Korea on some southern leaders' preferred terms.

Since this is one of your key points, the inability to even attempt a refutations strongly suggests you're dead wrong. The Park example does not support you. Nor does the Cheney example. You may be correct that the show itself insists that Cain is not just a villain whose demise we are to cheer. At least, no one seems to have argued that point successfully. But what the show thinks is irrelevant to what we decide is right in the real world, and anyone has the right to apply the same reasoning to their opinion of a fictional character.

diankra wrote: View Post
Marc wrote: View Post

No it gets overlooked for ideological differences. Leaders (dictators) like park and Pinochet are supported not because of what they did but the political stances they took I.e they are still admired today because of their oppression of those on the political left.
Or hated for that reason - let's be balanced here
Balance? Right wing leaders routinely use violence and fear (despite the formal illegality in most cases) on behalf of a minority. In practice, a popular government rarely can take power because the right wing forcibly suppresses majority rule. It is unbalanced to claim that minority repression of the majority is morally equivalent to alleged majority suppression of the majority. Death squads are an integral part of right wing regimes, but not of left ones. That's not balanced either.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:27 PM   #115
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
With regard to the torture of the prisoner. The prisoner had aided and abetted in a genocide. Let us not forget this.
You know who else aided and abetted a genocide? Admiral Cain, by murdering civilians, crippling their ships and abandoning them to die, separating families who could be having more children, and pursuing a hopeless war of vengeance that already got a third of her crew killed and would have killed the rest had it kept going.

Above all Cain wanted information. One of the ways she wanted to accomplish this was by psychological torture and degradation. Torture has been used by both "good guys" and "bad guys" throughout history.
It was as much about getting revenge on the Cylon woman who hurt and deceived her as it was about getting information. Probably an element of embarrassment at being tricked since she's a raging egomaniac as well.

And torture is wrong regardless of who uses it. It doesn't become okay just because you consider yourselves the good guys. Everyone considers themselves the good guys.

With regard to raiding the civilian ships...in a lot of wars throughout history including WWI and the Civil War (the good guys...the Union did this), there was a common tactic utilized called scorched Earth where an army would destroy anything - food, homes, etc. that could be considered useful to the enemy. Lots of civilians died as a result of these tactics. At least Cain was just scavenging for things she needed. Judge her not to harshly.
Raiding the ships for parts and personnel has nothing to do with scorched Earth warfare, it was about prolonging her pointless vengeance war and being a sociopath who doesn't care about how her actions affect others.

As you say, scorched Earth is about denying the enemy resources, either by destroying their resources if you're on the offensive (Sherman's March to the Sea) or destroying your resources if you're on the defensive (the USSR during the German invasion). But the Cylon's weren't interested in taking human resources and tech, they were interested in killing all humans at that point. So your comparison to scorched Earth warfare makes no sense. Nor does your defense of Cain's strategy and tactics, since she was so blinded by hate that she actually aided the Cylons in their goal of destroying humanity.

So, yeah, I'll judge her harshly.

I think the end of the Pegasus arc and Razor pretty much vindicates her. At her funeral Starbuck says the fleet is less safe without her and everyone on Pegasus pretty much agrees with this. Towards the end of Razor Adama acknowledges that he can't find anything wrong tactically with anything Cain did and refuses to render a moral judgement on her. And I think what symbolically vindicates her is that her protege Kendra Shaw is promoted to XO in Razor and sacrifices herself in battle at the end. Adama recommends posthumous commendation for Shaw despite the self-righteous objections of Lee. Adama also tells a shaken Lee that his decision to sacrifice Starbuck, Shaw and the away-team (overruled by Adama) wouldn't have been the wrong decision implying Cain would have made that decision in a heartbeat.
The fact that Adama and Starbuck complimented Cain keeps getting mentioned as if that should close out the argument or something.

First of all, since when are Adama and Starbuck unimpeachable paragons of virtue? They've both done some pretty morally questionable things themselves. Nothing even close to being on par with what Cain did, but their hands certainly aren't clean, nor are they infallible.

Secondly, it's a lot easier to judge someone less harshly when she's dead and no longer a constant threat hanging over you and your crew.

Thirdly, they were trying to integrate a hostile crew who had nearly been in a firefight with them days earlier into their command structure. Badmouthing their former commander at her funeral doesn't seem like a great way of building a bridge between the crews, especially since that hostility still existed two years later and boiled over into mutiny for many of them.

Lee is self-righteous for rightly pointing out that Kendra Shaw was a murderer? Jesus Christ.

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Consider waging a guerrilla war (many examples throughout history where a small guerrilla force has beat back a superpower) and fighting for your home vs. a pilgrimage to a mythical planet. In hindsight the choice might be wrong, but in reality the first choice is the more rational option that most people will take and many have previously succeeded in. Thus, you have to judge her based on that.
Fighting for what home? Their home was destroyed. The two ragtag fleets were all they had left to call home, and Cain crippled hers and left them to die. How did she fight for them?

In case you forgot, at first Earth was just something Adama said to give the people hope and keep them pacified until he could figure something out. It was only later that the search for it became serious when they started finding clues. The goal initially was just to get clear of the Cylons and possibly find a habitable planet to settle on where they might start over again. Adama and Roslin were fighting for a home, in the form of saving the surviving humans of the fleet and rebuilding their society. Cain was fighting for pointless vengeance.

So, yeah, I will judge her for that. Her tactics and strategy were stupid, pointless, and immoral.

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a fulfilling of Godwin's law.
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a reference to Hitler.
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a reference to Hitler.
You know, Godwin's Law doesn't really apply when you're discussing things that Hitler and the Nazis actually did, like committing war crimes and genocide. It's not meant to be a ban on mentioning Hitler or the Nazis even when they're relevant to the discussion.

Also, repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it so. You've done that a lot.

Case in point:

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

2) By arguing that it was "guerrilla war tactics" then that argument basically says "it's okay to rape and torture" the "good guys" so long as the other guy is using "guerrilla war tactics"
Talk about strawmen...
It's not a strawman if that's an actual argument you've been making throughout the thread, which it is. You've been an apologist for her war crimes throughout the thread based on the flimsiest of reasons, such as (paraphrasing) "other countries have done it, so it's okay" "Adama complimented her tactics, so it's okay," "if your people approve of you, rape and torture are defensible," and "she was fighting a guerrilla war, so the ends justify the means."

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
I think everything has to be looked at in context and if you look at what Cain did in the context of war, it was pretty mild.
She left thousands of her own people to die when the entirety of the human species was only measured in the thousands itself (and even less from her perspective than from others since she didn't know about the Adama/Roslin ragtag fleet). That is unforgivable, and certainly not "pretty mild" in any context.

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
As the President, he understand even if you find it morally reprehensible and do not engage in it yourself, an executive should be immune from prosecution in order to exercise the full extent of power when at war. It was found constitutional for FDR to intern 100,000 of US's own citizens based on ethnicity.
That's a pretty repugnant viewpoint. Just because something's legal at the time doesn't always make it right. Justifying FDR's racist internment of innocent Japanese-Americans simply because it was found to be constitutional is disgusting.

Someone as tactically competent as Cain made the right call by consolidating power and preventing mutiny.
Why do you keep calling her tactically competent? She walked into an obvious trap on the Cylon relay and was so blinded by rage that she continued the attack anyway and wound up losing a third of her crew.

She murdered the only officer willing to stand up to her, thus scaring everyone else into submission and making sure she would never get an honest assessment of a battle plan or her orders again.

She was willing to go to war with her own people over her favorite rapist accidentally being killed.

She left a third of what was left of the human species at that point to die at the hands of the Cylons so she could pursue a vengeance war that could never possibly be won.

Not only was she morally bankrupt, she was an idiot.

Mind you, this is no reflection on Michelle Forbes or her performance, which was superb.

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
My point is that the torture/oppression/murder can be overlooked if you have a good leader.
One would think those things should disqualify you from being a "good leader," but hey, what do I know?
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Old April 3 2013, 07:39 PM   #116
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

stj wrote: View Post
Balance? Right wing leaders routinely use violence and fear (despite the formal illegality in most cases) on behalf of a minority.
As do left-wing leaders, historically speaking (Hi USSR!). The key isn't really their politics but more the fact they're leaders. Leaders will always work primarily on behalf of a minority because they belong to that elite minority. It is human nature.

Locutus of Bored wrote:
You know who else aided and abetted a genocide? Admiral Cain, by murdering civilians, crippling their ships and abandoning them to die,
That isn't genocide. Genocide is the systematic destruction of a race. Cain wanted to protect humans.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:52 PM   #117
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post

Locutus of Bored wrote:
You know who else aided and abetted a genocide? Admiral Cain, by murdering civilians, crippling their ships and abandoning them to die,
That isn't genocide. Genocide is the systematic destruction of a race. Cain wanted to protect humans.

so she protected them by murdering them? what?!

how does that even work??

i suppose it might not be technically genocide, but how did you come to form that last sentence?
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Old April 3 2013, 07:55 PM   #118
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote:

Cain wanted to protect humans.

And she did a great job of it.
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Old April 3 2013, 08:04 PM   #119
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain is an example of Hard Men Making Hard Decisions. As with most Hard Men Making Hard Decisions, those decisions are stupid and needlessly brutal. Hard Men Making Hard Decisions are rightfully mocked for their incompetence. If the writers don't know that the Hard Men Making Hard Decisions are incompetent, that just makes it more mock-worthy.
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Old April 3 2013, 08:07 PM   #120
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Balance? Right wing leaders routinely use violence and fear (despite the formal illegality in most cases) on behalf of a minority.
As do left-wing leaders, historically speaking (Hi USSR!). The key isn't really their politics but more the fact they're leaders. Leaders will always work primarily on behalf of a minority because they belong to that elite minority. It is human nature.
Take it easy there. We're starting to dip too far into political harangue.
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