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Old April 1 2013, 08:08 PM   #2116
Reverend
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Nonsense. Shepard wasn't the only person leading a force of aliens to fight against Saren. What about Captain Kirrahe? He lead the assault on Saren's base of operations on Virmire and WON. If it wasn't for Kirrahe and his leadership skills, Saren would still have his base of operations on Virmire.
Kirrahe only wins with Shepard's assistance. Indeed, he only survives at all based on whether or not Shepard intervenes during the mission. That's a fact. If he and his men could have gone and done it themselves, they would have. STG aren't known for being a timid bunch. As it turned out, the Salarians acted as a distraction so Shepard could lead shadow team in the back door, knock out the AA guns and secure the bomb for detonation. Plus of course Shepard was the one that found the Virmire beacon and spoke directly with Sovereign. I doubt it was even aware of Kirrahe's existence.

As for the Asari and Turians, all they did at the battle of the Citadel was get their superior arses kicked up one side and down the other. It was the arrival of the human fleet that turned the tide and engage Sovereign directly after Shepard and her squad either Saren into breaking free of their control and committing suicide/beat him in a stand up fight then opened the arms to let the fleet in. Then of course Shepard and her team took down Sovereign's avatar, causing some weird feedback (still not sure that that works) that disabled the reaper long enough for Normandy and the fleet to deliver the killing blow.

Of course it's all irrelevant since these military victories aren't what proved or disproved humanity's "worthiness" to be turned into meat paste (a dubious honour at best), it was merely what caught the reapers' attention. The next two years spend abducting humans and testing the human genome's potential for mutation is what made them a "viable possibility." Indeed, based on what Harbinger says, if the Krogan had not been sterilized, they might have been their prime candidates. Likewise, had the Quarians not had their immune system trashed, they might have been selected.

Again I say though, humans aren't "special", they're just well suited to the reapers' purposes. We can't even be sure exactly what the catalyst's criteria for preservation is. Either way, it's a subjective thing, it dose not confer some inherent worth above and beyond all others. If you need to put a nail inside a piece of wood, the best tool for the job is a hammer. That doesn't make the screwdriver a fundamentally inferior tool, yes?

Last edited by Reverend; April 1 2013 at 08:21 PM.
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Old April 1 2013, 09:04 PM   #2117
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Reverend wrote: View Post
Indeed, based on what Harbinger says, if the Krogan had not been sterilized, they might have been their prime candidates.
So why didn't the Reapers develop a cure for the Krogan? I mean, they had the ability to mutate the Protheans into the Collectors and turn human paste into a Reaper, why not cure the genophage and resort to the Krogans? Of Mordin and his one time assistant could work up a cure for it, why can't the Reapers?

Reverend wrote: View Post
Plus of course Shepard was the one that found the Virmire beacon and spoke directly with Sovereign. I doubt it was even aware of Kirrahe's existence.
So you're writing off Kirrahe's role as unimportant because Sovereign probably wasn't even aware of his presence? That's like saying stealth tactics are useless because the enemy can't see you coming. For a Reaper not to be aware of what is attacking him is a pretty big freaking deal.
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Old April 1 2013, 10:02 PM   #2118
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Reverend wrote: View Post
Nonsense. Shepard wasn't the only person leading a force of aliens to fight against Saren. What about Captain Kirrahe? He lead the assault on Saren's base of operations on Virmire and WON. If it wasn't for Kirrahe and his leadership skills, Saren would still have his base of operations on Virmire.
Kirrahe only wins with Shepard's assistance. Indeed, he only survives at all based on whether or not Shepard intervenes during the mission. That's a fact. If he and his men could have gone and done it themselves, they would have. STG aren't known for being a timid bunch. As it turned out, the Salarians acted as a distraction so Shepard could lead shadow team in the back door, knock out the AA guns and secure the bomb for detonation. Plus of course Shepard was the one that found the Virmire beacon and spoke directly with Sovereign. I doubt it was even aware of Kirrahe's existence.

As for the Asari and Turians, all they did at the battle of the Citadel was get their superior arses kicked up one side and down the other. It was the arrival of the human fleet that turned the tide and engage Sovereign directly after Shepard and her squad either Saren into breaking free of their control and committing suicide/beat him in a stand up fight then opened the arms to let the fleet in. Then of course Shepard and her team took down Sovereign's avatar, causing some weird feedback (still not sure that that works) that disabled the reaper long enough for Normandy and the fleet to deliver the killing blow.

Of course it's all irrelevant since these military victories aren't what proved or disproved humanity's "worthiness" to be turned into meat paste (a dubious honour at best), it was merely what caught the reapers' attention. The next two years spend abducting humans and testing the human genome's potential for mutation is what made them a "viable possibility." Indeed, based on what Harbinger says, if the Krogan had not been sterilized, they might have been their prime candidates. Likewise, had the Quarians not had their immune system trashed, they might have been selected.

Again I say though, humans aren't "special", they're just well suited to the reapers' purposes. We can't even be sure exactly what the catalyst's criteria for preservation is. Either way, it's a subjective thing, it dose not confer some inherent worth above and beyond all others. If you need to put a nail inside a piece of wood, the best tool for the job is a hammer. That doesn't make the screwdriver a fundamentally inferior tool, yes?
I figured it was that humans were still genetically diverse where as the rest of the galaxy was homogeneous by this point, so they had enough necessary diversity to make Soverign grade meat paste.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Plus of course Shepard was the one that found the Virmire beacon and spoke directly with Sovereign. I doubt it was even aware of Kirrahe's existence.
So you're writing off Kirrahe's role as unimportant because Sovereign probably wasn't even aware of his presence? That's like saying stealth tactics are useless because the enemy can't see you coming. For a Reaper not to be aware of what is attacking him is a pretty big freaking deal.
No he's writing off Kirrahe's role as unimportant becuase without Shepard he and his team would have either been smoking piles of ash, indoctrinated minions, or rotting corpses.
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Old April 2 2013, 11:07 AM   #2119
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Jeyl wrote: View Post
So why didn't the Reapers develop a cure for the Krogan? I mean, they had the ability to mutate the Protheans into the Collectors and turn human paste into a Reaper, why not cure the genophage and resort to the Krogans? Of Mordin and his one time assistant could work up a cure for it, why can't the Reapers?
They probably could have if they cared to. They did not. They look at what's there, and pick out the "best." They don't go around "fixing" races, as that rather defeats the purpose.

Reverend wrote: View Post
Plus of course Shepard was the one that found the Virmire beacon and spoke directly with Sovereign. I doubt it was even aware of Kirrahe's existence.
So you're writing off Kirrahe's role as unimportant because Sovereign probably wasn't even aware of his presence? That's like saying stealth tactics are useless because the enemy can't see you coming. For a Reaper not to be aware of what is attacking him is a pretty big freaking deal.
As Hartzilla2007 points out, as usual, you've totally missed the point.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I figured it was that humans were still genetically diverse where as the rest of the galaxy was homogeneous by this point, so they had enough necessary diversity to make Soverign grade meat paste.
Pretty much my view, yeah. Still I think there's more to it than just genetics. Reapers would have been aware of humanity in general since at least the Prothean cycle, and as a space faring race since the First Contact war. It took their rise to galactic prominence in the wake of the attack on Eden Prime to really catch their interest.

You have to wonder though, who they were planning on liquidising before they settled on humanity. I mean, Sovereign wouldn't have tried to open the citadel relay to dark space unless they had a prime candidate. Yet from what Harbinger says the council races were all discarded as unsuitable. The Vorcha certainly had an adaptive genome, but I can't see their intelligence being sufficient for heir needs. The Batarians maybe?
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Old April 2 2013, 12:38 PM   #2120
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Reverend wrote: View Post
You have to wonder though, who they were planning on liquidising before they settled on humanity. I mean, Sovereign wouldn't have tried to open the citadel relay to dark space unless they had a prime candidate. Yet from what Harbinger says the council races were all discarded as unsuitable. The Vorcha certainly had an adaptive genome, but I can't see their intelligence being sufficient for heir needs. The Batarians maybe?
Is intelligence even a factor anymore, now that the dark matter plotline has been dropped? I thought the Starchild just needed someone to make the choice between the three fates, regardless of their genetics...
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Old April 2 2013, 03:09 PM   #2121
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Well, the crucible and the three choices (however dumb that may be) has nothing to do with the reapers plans, so it doesn't really have any bearing on their motivations or criteria for "ascension" to reaper form.

Initially I did actually wonder if the crucible plans were introduced into the cycles by the crucible itself. The EC (I think?) put paid to that idea since you can ask directly who came up with it and the response was a disappointing "you do not know them, and it would take too long to explain." That made me think it might be survivors from whatever race created them, so Leviathan looked promising for this theory for a while, but that doesn't appear to be the case either.

I suppose it's good that there are some mysteries. I mean the cycles have been going for at least a billion years, averaging about 50,000 years a go, that's around 20,000 cycles *minimum*. Plenty of time for all kinds of variance in the pattern. Perhaps one race succeeded in a similar initiative that Javik attempted and managed to preserve a substantial population into the following cycle? Maybe a race took a page out of the reaper's playbook; retrofitting their surviving fleets as stasis arcs and sending them out into darkspace where they can't be tracked.

It would be nice to think that the last cycle wasn't *completely* unique and some other race at least gave the reapers a run for their money. Maybe something like that is what actually prompted them to build the relay network and citadel; to increase efficiency and better control the colonization patterns of emerging civilizations.
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Old April 2 2013, 05:42 PM   #2122
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Re: Mass Effect 3

The "You wouldn't know them" line always cracks me up, largely because of the response it gets on BSN. Frankly though, we wouldn't know them, so what would be the point of assigning them an arbitrary name?

The liquization question is an interesting one - can't see it being the Batarians, or the Vorcha. Who does that leave? The Drell, the Hanar? Was that it, were the Reapers going after Blasto?!

Re the Crucible - disappointing on Starbrat's part - they've been aware of the crucible design for a number of cycles, in the previous cycle the Protheans actually built the damned thing, so how come Starbrat, or the Reapers never bothered studying it to the point of being able to counteract it?
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Old April 3 2013, 12:15 AM   #2123
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Pretty sure Harbinger says the Drell are useless because there aren't enough of them left. So clearly there's a minimum biomass threshold for a new reaper to be viable. Kind of makes you wonder if there were relatively few Leviathans that went into creating Harbinger, given how *huge* they are. Maybe in the tens or hundreds of thousands rather than billions?

Can't really see it being the Hanar. Nor the Volus or Elcor. I say the Batarians since they're most like the humans, more so than the other races at least. I suppose you could say the same about the Turians, but then Harby called them "too primitive" whatever that means. Perhaps they're just to rigid and I'll equipped for adaptation? The Batarians seem adaptable, aggressive, ambitious, their only real weakness was their political system and I'm not sure how much that'd figure into things, one way or the other.

The "You wouldn't know them" line always cracks me up, largely because of the response it gets on BSN. Frankly though, we wouldn't know them, so what would be the point of assigning them an arbitrary name?
Not that I disagree, but you must admit it does rather smack of lazy writing. But then the whole bit about every race down the ages adding to and developing the design and yet somehow none of them have a clue what it's original function was just makes no sense.

One of my theories up until the Starchild scene was that it was a supernova generator. Tying in the dark matter/ageing sun subplot from ME2. The basic idea being that it uses the mass relays to selectively target the suns they orbit and make them go boom, taking any reapers in the system with them. I thought the "big decision" would be whether to sacrifice Sol and humanity to take them all out at once, or (with low EMS) set them all off, hitting the big resent button for the whole galaxy.

I'm not saying my notion was any better, but at least it makes some semblance of sense. It's also why I barely hesitated to pick destroy in the end, since I went in fully prepared to sacrifice one race to save the others. It's sad to loose EDI & the Geth, but they both expressed in the game that they'd rather risk non-functionality than allow the reapers to continue.
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Old April 3 2013, 09:00 AM   #2124
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I don't know, I just don't see it being the Batarians. They're like humans, but farther back, so why wouldn't it just have been humans from the start.

Re the quote - Yeah, it probably was just lazy writing tbh - they were rushing to get the EC out, and being realistic, had they name-dropped an arbitrarily named new alien race, then that would just lead to even more questions, so I'm willing to forgive them for that omission. In the grand scheme of things, that was a very minor gripe compared with some of the other complaints.

Re the Crucible, I thought it would somehow involve the relays, that much seemed fairly obvious I thought. I didn't foresee the Starbrat though, I doubt anyone in their right mind did.

Destroy - the only choice really. It's what I went to the Citadel to do, kill the Reapers. Not to become TIM/Catalyst 2.0, and not to create the master-race through genetically raping the galaxy via space magic. Destroy ends the Reapers' billion-year cycle of bullsh1t. Sure, there are casualties, but as you said, EDI and the Geth knew the score, and willingly signed on. It was a sad loss, but an acceptable one. Compared to doing an about-face and suddenly deciding that TIM and Saren had been right all along, or from changing the nature of all life in the galaxy (and effectively giving the Starbrat exactly what it wants), then the loss of both EDI and the Geth, is a small price to pay.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:58 PM   #2125
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Yeah, I've entertained the idea of doing the other endings before but always done destroy and since I find so much fault with the endings, have decided that the citadel post mission dlc should take place after taking back earth. Therefore, EDI lives somehow. It's not all that delusional if Shepard could live. Plus, I've put so much time into this series, I feel it's the only appropriate response. And it makes me actually not hate the Earth/Citadel missions, because it allows for there to be a dawn after the darkness.

Anyhoo, I could never choose the other options because of just how insidious the Reapers were. Indoctrination, converting people into husks, targeting civilians, the list goes on. An evil that bad just had to be destroyed. Also, not let Starbrat who did all of this retain his forces, just in case he somehow survived and since he had been responsible for trillions of deaths if not more, the possibility, however remote that he might somehow regain control of them is simply unacceptable.

Also, it's one thing to use leftover Prothean Technology, it's another to use something made of Ground-up-Protheans. "You died horrible, awful, disturbing deaths so we could have an army of Reapers rebuild out society and allow us to live in comfort and safety." Seriously?
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Old April 3 2013, 03:53 PM   #2126
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Re: Mass Effect 3

A lot of people play the Citadel DLC, or at least the latter half of the Citadel DLC, as post-ending content.

Of course if you're on PC then the ideal end is MEHEM > Citadel Party.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:45 PM   #2127
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Angel4576 wrote: View Post
A lot of people play the Citadel DLC, or at least the latter half of the Citadel DLC, as post-ending content.

Of course if you're on PC then the ideal end is MEHEM > Citadel Party.
In my own personal canon, it ends with MEHEM, then the Citadel Party, then Mickey Mouse Castle of Illusion.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:48 PM   #2128
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Re: Mass Effect 3

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Angel4576 wrote: View Post
A lot of people play the Citadel DLC, or at least the latter half of the Citadel DLC, as post-ending content.

Of course if you're on PC then the ideal end is MEHEM > Citadel Party.
In my own personal canon, it ends with MEHEM, then the Citadel Party, then Mickey Mouse Castle of Illusion.
Whoa! If Disney ending's your thing then just pick synthesis.....everyone lives happily ever after.....thanks to space magic......
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Old April 3 2013, 05:09 PM   #2129
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Re: Mass Effect 3

The reapers weren't evil, they were amoral. They did what they did because it was a means to an end. They are no more evil than a forest fire, an asteroid strike or a supernova. Indeed, all those things can bring great destruction and death, but can also bring renewal and the promise of new life, just as the reapers did. I still destroyed the buggers though.

I have actually picked the other options--synthesis for my full paragon sentinel & control for my *barely* paragade infiltrator. Partly because it suits their personalities (what they would choose) but it's mostly for the sake of variety and I have the tiniest lingering hope that the legend savefile will be worth holding onto for future games....and because seeing EDI hug Traynor is hot.

I don't know, I just don't see it being the Batarians. They're like humans, but farther back, so why wouldn't it just have been humans from the start.
My reasoning was just process of elimination. We know they didn't focus on humans until *after* ME1, so they must have had someone else in mind. From what Harbinger says, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Drell, Krogan, Quarians and Geth (obviously!) aren't suitable for a variety of reasons. That leaves Volus, Hanar, Elcor, Vorcha and Batarians. Of those, Batarians appear to be the only ones even vaguely close to humans. Granted, there are in theory dozens of other minor independent races out in the terminus systems, but they would seem to be unlikely candidates.
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Old April 3 2013, 06:09 PM   #2130
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I would agree that out of the remaining candidate races, it would seem like Batarians are the most obvious, but what they have that the Asari, Turians, Salarians etc don't, I'm not sure.

I think, if it really were the Batarians then I could only conclude that this must have been a pretty slow cycle. The Batarians must be the best of a bad bunch!
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