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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 2 2013, 11:43 PM   #31
C.E. Evans
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

Well, as already mentioned, Troi did pass the bridge officer exam. Helm control may have been (if not probably was) part of the exam. With everyone else on the bridge busy, Troi was simply the nearest person who could fly the ship who wasn't.
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Old April 2 2013, 11:55 PM   #32
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

R. Star wrote: View Post
Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The goal posts called - they're getting dizzy from being continually moved.

After all we've
a) proved to you that Troi was qualified to helm the saucer section yet you maintain that she merely a shrink

b) that damage the ship combined with the shockwave meant that they were in trouble no matter what happened you maintain she was incapable to performing the job.
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Old April 3 2013, 12:11 AM   #33
Lance
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

Melakon wrote: View Post
She just wasn't comfortable with right hand drive.
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Old April 3 2013, 12:34 AM   #34
R. Star
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

Marc wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The goal posts called - they're getting dizzy from being continually moved.

After all we've
a) proved to you that Troi was qualified to helm the saucer section yet you maintain that she merely a shrink

b) that damage the ship combined with the shockwave meant that they were in trouble no matter what happened you maintain she was incapable to performing the job.
She was never shown flying the ship during her bridge qualifications. Regardless it's irrelevant, I've explained several times that space is three dimensional, that the saucer was responding to helm commands before the shockwave hit, and that Troi could've maneuvered away from it. The only way the shock wave could have knocked the saucer into the planet is if it was between the planet and the stardrive. So that turn Troi made as they separated was turning the ship towards the planet. Which is foolish even when things are going just fine.

If you want to play apologist for her, feel free. She really should've and could have saved the saucer. Yes she only had a few seconds to maneuver... that's why you usually employ a full time pilot instead of at best(it's never proven she sat at the helm before that point) a part time one. Piloting requires quick reflexes, which she never really demonstrated at all.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:10 PM   #35
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The only real problem was when Riker didn't order to fire everything at the Bird of prey.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:24 PM   #36
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

I think your response to the illogic of the destruction of the Enterprise is based on the fact it was not necessary for it to be destroyed at all, just that the "writers" felt the pschopathic need to murder her on the big screen so it's a big deal. Additionally, the circumstance of the destruction was shoddily created.

And the fact they showed the explosion of the stardrive section in the tv spot didn't help. They just used Troi as a Jar Jar.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:47 PM   #37
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

The only real problem was when Riker didn't order to fire everything at the Bird of prey.
He probably did. After all, the ship did fire single phaser beams, which is the very definition of "everything" from the TV show (that single occasion in "BoBW" with the impossible pylon beams notwithstanding).

The plot isn't unpalatable in that sense at all. Dialogue as such covers all the plot holes. Shields are useless because the man operating them has been co-opted. Klingon shields in turn are holding in a twist that surprises even the Klingons themselves - but the audience shouldn't be surprised, as the tech wizard Soran had previously promised to do something about the fact that the villains were ridiculously outgunned. And yet the E-D fights back, constantly firing weapons, as we can hear from the background noises.

It's the visual presentation that is lamentably lacking: we see just a small fraction of the battle, omitting all those moments the heroes are firing back. And we never get the scene that's probably playing out several times as the battle proceeds: Riker orders shields adjusted some more, LaForge duly adjusts them, and the Durases watch and learn and do their own adjusting.

A "plausibly" superior enemy would have been no fun. The movie is about a bitter old man trying to change the unfair universe to his liking, and another opting not to; it's only fitting that the climax features a space battle between our heroes and a tiny, rusty has-been of a starship, and a wheezing and coughing fistfight between said two old men - both of which the hero side actually loses hands down.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old April 3 2013, 03:52 PM   #38
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

Well, I expect they used all their budget on important plot elements like a wooden sailing ship, and Picard's herd of children that they couldn't afford a few more effects beyond that one phaser shot.

I'd have preferred if the E-D went down, fighting the heroic battle myself. Managing to win the fight despite the enemy's advantage due to superior firepower. Instead we just got a silly technobabble win.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:12 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

It sort of counts as a "superior firepower win" that the E-D survived long enough to be able to technobabble the Klingons out of the game...

(And personally, I found the sailing ship a much more interesting element of the movie than the starships. Except for the E-B... Despite so many parameters being forced upon the redesigners and the people who shot the scenes, she looked positively regal.)

Timo Saloniemi
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Old April 3 2013, 07:14 PM   #40
C.E. Evans
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

R. Star wrote: View Post
Marc wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The goal posts called - they're getting dizzy from being continually moved.

After all we've
a) proved to you that Troi was qualified to helm the saucer section yet you maintain that she merely a shrink

b) that damage the ship combined with the shockwave meant that they were in trouble no matter what happened you maintain she was incapable to performing the job.
She was never shown flying the ship during her bridge qualifications. Regardless it's irrelevant, I've explained several times that space is three dimensional, that the saucer was responding to helm commands before the shockwave hit, and that Troi could've maneuvered away from it. The only way the shock wave could have knocked the saucer into the planet is if it was between the planet and the stardrive. So that turn Troi made as they separated was turning the ship towards the planet. Which is foolish even when things are going just fine.

If you want to play apologist for her, feel free. She really should've and could have saved the saucer. Yes she only had a few seconds to maneuver... that's why you usually employ a full time pilot instead of at best(it's never proven she sat at the helm before that point) a part time one. Piloting requires quick reflexes, which she never really demonstrated at all.
Troi-hater.
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Old April 3 2013, 08:38 PM   #41
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

^

Pft... well insulting the other person is typically a sign your argument can't stand scrutiny
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Old April 3 2013, 08:44 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

On the "objective facts" side of things (or, rather, the "lack thereof" side), neither the dialogue nor the visuals establish that the shockwave of the explosion would actually have pushed the saucer into the planet. The shockwave shakes the saucer first, without giving her appreciable extra speed; the flight into the atmosphere happens a moment later, with the saucer supposedly spinning whichever way.

So, a disorientation scenario certainly remains possible, and even likely: the blast of an exploding boat doesn't actually push our heroic character to the bottom of the bay, but merely confuses him so that he starts swimming downward, thinking surface and salvation lies that way.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old April 3 2013, 09:02 PM   #43
C.E. Evans
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

R. Star wrote: View Post
^

Pft... well insulting the other person is typically a sign your argument can't stand scrutiny
First of all it wasn't an insult, but a joke (note the smiley).


Second, it's your argument that doesn't stand scrutiny. It goes against what was presented onscreen. The explosion caused the saucer section to lose helm control and crash into the planet. The line "Helm controls are offline!" makes it quite clear that it wouldn't have made a bit of difference who was sitting at the helm. The ship still would have crashed.

You've been trying awfully hard to suggest that it was Troi's fault the ship crashed and someone else at the helm could have prevented it, but the evidence just isn't there to support that.
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Old April 3 2013, 09:26 PM   #44
Marc
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
^

Pft... well insulting the other person is typically a sign your argument can't stand scrutiny
First of all it wasn't an insult, but a joke (note the smiley).


Second, it's your argument that doesn't stand scrutiny. It goes against what was presented onscreen. The explosion caused the saucer section to lose helm control and crash into the planet. The line "Helm controls are offline!" makes it quite clear that it wouldn't have made a bit of difference who was sitting at the helm. The ship still would have crashed.

You've been trying awfully hard to suggest that it was Troi's fault the ship crashed and someone else at the helm could have prevented it, but the evidence just isn't there to support that.
hence the continual shifting of the goal posts to try and support a failing argument.

think we're done here.
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Old April 3 2013, 09:31 PM   #45
marksound
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Re: Deanna driving the ship...

Timo wrote: View Post
The only real problem was when Riker didn't order to fire everything at the Bird of prey.
He probably did. After all, the ship did fire single phaser beams, which is the very definition of "everything" from the TV show (that single occasion in "BoBW" with the impossible pylon beams notwithstanding).

The plot isn't unpalatable in that sense at all. Dialogue as such covers all the plot holes. Shields are useless because the man operating them has been co-opted. Klingon shields in turn are holding in a twist that surprises even the Klingons themselves - but the audience shouldn't be surprised, as the tech wizard Soran had previously promised to do something about the fact that the villains were ridiculously outgunned. And yet the E-D fights back, constantly firing weapons, as we can hear from the background noises.

It's the visual presentation that is lamentably lacking: we see just a small fraction of the battle, omitting all those moments the heroes are firing back. And we never get the scene that's probably playing out several times as the battle proceeds: Riker orders shields adjusted some more, LaForge duly adjusts them, and the Durases watch and learn and do their own adjusting.

A "plausibly" superior enemy would have been no fun. The movie is about a bitter old man trying to change the unfair universe to his liking, and another opting not to; it's only fitting that the climax features a space battle between our heroes and a tiny, rusty has-been of a starship, and a wheezing and coughing fistfight between said two old men - both of which the hero side actually loses hands down.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo wrote: View Post
It sort of counts as a "superior firepower win" that the E-D survived long enough to be able to technobabble the Klingons out of the game...

(And personally, I found the sailing ship a much more interesting element of the movie than the starships. Except for the E-B... Despite so many parameters being forced upon the redesigners and the people who shot the scenes, she looked positively regal.)

Timo Saloniemi
All of the above, plus one more word:

Storytelling.

That's the one thing that trumps everything else in the world of movie making. Getting from A to Z in 2 hours is the goal.

It's not real life. If you're not willing to suspend disbelief, what's the point? You might as well watch a documentary. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, or don't watch the movie again and deny its existence. Easy choice, really.

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