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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 3 2013, 10:49 AM   #91
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
so cain should've declared herself emperor?
In war, even in modern times, the United States (today's equivalent of the Roman Empire) constitutionally concentrates power in the executive vs. diffusing it. Furthermore, there's a reason why Obama won't investigate any torture with the previous administration while morally condemning it. As the President, he understand even if you find it morally reprehensible and do not engage in it yourself, an executive should be immune from prosecution in order to exercise the full extent of power when at war. It was found constitutional for FDR to intern 100,000 of US's own citizens based on ethnicity.

Someone as tactically competent as Cain made the right call by consolidating power and preventing mutiny.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 11:02 AM.
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Old April 3 2013, 10:57 AM   #92
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

i really should've added a laughing face to that first sentence.

'if the president does it, its not illegal' - skeletor

now how about the actual serious content in that previous post?
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Old April 3 2013, 11:21 AM   #93
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Never count out a guerrilla force willing to fight and die for their homes.
There was no home left to fight for. And for much of her campaign of crazy, she only had one battlestar.

Her duty was pretty clear - she'd found some remnant of the human race. Take them and run and keep running and run some more. To be fair Adama was going to fight at first, as well, but at least he was willing to listen to a voice of reason. And he wasn't plundering the civillians for parts.
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Old April 3 2013, 11:47 AM   #94
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

also since when was the 'if it's a guerilla war you can get away with extra nasty shit'' an actual justification?
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Old April 3 2013, 12:57 PM   #95
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
also since when was the 'if it's a guerilla war you can get away with extra nasty shit'' an actual justification?
Talk about a damn straw-man.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 01:12 PM.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:21 PM   #96
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

strawman? that was the gist of your comments earlier

how about that straw-hitler you brought out of nowhere?

your rationale seems to be torture is justified because america used it. and america is the 'good guys'

and you can't just address the many rebuttals by just saying you have and hope no one noticed you didn't.
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Last edited by Avon; April 3 2013 at 01:34 PM.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:41 PM   #97
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
so cain should've declared herself emperor?

i think you can say:

cain shook up the series, was an interesting obstacle for the regulars to overcome and michelle forbes is always awesome

however:

as a character her actions are undefendable (or so i thought). she consistently made the wrong decisions, whatever her justifications. and saying 'rape-torture is ok if it gets you some intelligence (it didn't though, did it?)' is disgusting.

would you still defend, if say leoben had raped starbuck. 'it's ok he was intelligence gathering and the humans are the insurgents in this scenario'. if you think it was a valid tactic for cain, then this would have to be a valid tactic for the cylons. and for the record there are no strawmen in that equivalency, so don't even try that shit.
As a citizen of the US, I wouldn't prosecute the President for using torture if he felt it was necessary to defend the country during war. I don't begrudge a citizen of another country that adopts a similar attitude with their own executive when engaged in war against us. War is a dirty business.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 01:56 PM.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:44 PM   #98
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
Damn straight. I cheered when Gina blew Cain's brains out: justice.
I knew the show was the wrong show for me when I started rooting for the Cylons to exterminate humanity.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:45 PM   #99
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
strawman? that was the gist of your comments earlier

how about that straw-hitler you brought out of nowhere?

your rationale seems to be torture is justified because america used it. and america is the 'good guys'

and you can't just address the many rebuttals by just saying you have and hope no one noticed you didn't.
Straw-hitler... there was a Hitler comparison made in the thread.

I have addressed pretty much everything. Nobody has addressed my scorched earth policy arguments, and reference of South Korea's dictator to defend Cain.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:56 PM   #100
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

It's unnecessary to address all content in the OP, or content from anywhere else in this thread, in order to rebut the stated thesis in the OP that Cain was the "best option", not to mention that she rose to the status of a "good leader". That's undoubtedly one reason why some of the posters in this thread haven't bothered to. The fact that South Korea in 1961 is at least as far removed from nuBSG as most anything else in the world is undoubtedly another.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:00 PM   #101
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Nobody has addressed my scorched earth policy arguments.
What, that she scorched one of the last little bits of what she was meant to be protecting in the first place? A duty that was far more important than "strike back at the cylons at all costs"?
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Old April 3 2013, 02:04 PM   #102
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Guerrilla warfare is an omnibus term covering both strategies and tactics. The strategy may be attrition, or it may aim at slowly accreting forces to engage in decisive conventional war. The tactics include hiding amongst the civilian population; attacking from difficult terrain; refusal of combat on any terms but those favoring quick victory; a continous series of small attacks. There are whole manuals spelling out guerrilla warfare tactics, including the urban variants.

However, none of this applies to either Galactica nor Pegasus. The series' commitment to a fantasy version of current events is misleading. What Anders and Helo were doing on Caprica was the only guerrilla war showed in the series. Attacks on base ships are plain old war.

PS As to the supposition that the dictator Park was responsible for the south's economic development? It is a dubious idea. Park was not the first dictator in the south, but Syngman Rhee didn't spark an economic boom. As an alternative hypothesis, let me suggest that the US military spending on the Vietnam War, much of which was necessarily spent in East Asia generally, was more likely to have played a key role. Japan's similar economic speed up in economic development without the supposed benefits of dictatorship in roughly the same period strongly suggests this was more important. Korean chaebol were modeled on Japanese zaibatsu and Korean economic policy as I understood it were similarly modeled on Japanese economic policy. None were the creations of dictators.

May I further suggest that the desire to retroactively rehabilitate Park has more to do with justifying a war in Korea than historical truth? (If you say I cna't, just unread this question!)
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Old April 3 2013, 02:08 PM   #103
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
so cain should've declared herself emperor?

i think you can say:

cain shook up the series, was an interesting obstacle for the regulars to overcome and michelle forbes is always awesome

however:

as a character her actions are undefendable (or so i thought). she consistently made the wrong decisions, whatever her justifications. and saying 'rape-torture is ok if it gets you some intelligence (it didn't though, did it?)' is disgusting.

would you still defend, if say leoben had raped starbuck. 'it's ok he was intelligence gathering and the humans are the insurgents in this scenario'. if you think it was a valid tactic for cain, then this would have to be a valid tactic for the cylons. and for the record there are no strawmen in that equivalency, so don't even try that shit.
As a citizen of the US, I wouldn't prosecute the President for using torture if he felt it was necessary to defend the country during war. I don't begrudge a citizen of another country that adopts a similar attitude with their own executive when engaged in war against us. War is a dirty business.
That is a despicable attitude.

Several US Presidents were/are war criminals and should be rotting in prison. The fact that they aren't is not a vindication of their methods, but a sad statement on the political impossibility of prosecuting American Presidents for how they conduct foreign affairs. We'll happily impeach a President for doing stupid things domestically, but we almost always give conduct related to foreign policy, and war in particular, a free pass.

That does not in any way excuse it, and that you think it does is frightening.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:21 PM   #104
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Gotta go to work. Will address other posts tom. Hope I also get some support from the many Cain fans that I know are out there.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:27 PM   #105
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Love Cain the character and actor who played her. Her actions? Not so much.
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