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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 3 2013, 04:05 AM   #16
Tosk
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Shatinator wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
The episode only works if the Romulans find out the truth after the Dominion War and declare war on the Federation. The writers wimped out by not showing that.

How can you justify that statement? . Are you saying that the crux of drama is invalid with out a follow up ep, or just that it doesn't "work" for you .
Not only that, but the Dominion war ends about 20 minutes before DS9 as a series ends forever. When were they supposed to do this Romulan storyline?
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Old April 3 2013, 04:12 AM   #17
LiLiKitty
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

I appreciate Roddenberry's vision, except for the "no conflict" policy that TNG was shackled with. The old truism is "conflict equals drama," therefore no conflict means no drama, or, at least, weak, limited conflict between characters. Thankfully, DS9 wasn't constrained this way. "In The Pale Moonlight" has deep, rich conflict that challenges Sisko as a character, making for great drama. The episode deserves all the kudos it gets.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:44 AM   #18
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

I think DS9's introduction of new concepts must have been one of those proverbial times they blindfolded the bronze bust of Roddenberry in Berman's office.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:28 PM   #19
Garrovick
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

I thought that the "no-conflict" approach to 24th-century Trek was a mistake on Gene Roddenberry's part. I just think it's unrealistic to expect that humanity will ever evolve to a point where there is no interpersonal conflict - certainly not in a mere few centuries.

However, I'm willing to give him a pass on it. Gene Roddenberry got a few things wrong with Trek, but they are far outweighed by all the things he got right.
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Old April 3 2013, 05:15 PM   #20
indolover
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Whether it's realistic or not is surely immaterial. I never knew Rick Berman was the supreme and Godly authority of valid artistic works.
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Old April 3 2013, 06:47 PM   #21
USS Firefly
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

I loved it. The conflict for such an officer as Sisko was good drama, and ofcourse Garak, what a great carakter.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:07 PM   #22
DalekJim
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

It's my favourite episode in all of Star Trek, with The Cage being a close second.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:38 AM   #23
Nightdiamond
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

All the philosophy aside, it was simply good TV viewing, IMO. At the time, the ending was unusual for Trek, because it usually liked to wrap up a story line all neat and proper.

Garak probably had some of the best lines near the end of the episode where he gave that small speech to Sisko.
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Old April 4 2013, 09:37 PM   #24
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

On thinking about this earlier, I realized that, had this been a TNG episode, the Enterprise crew would be trying to defeat Sisko and Garak. Sisko is the typical TNG "Starfleet Naughty Fellow."
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Old April 4 2013, 10:13 PM   #25
DS9forever
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Melakon wrote: View Post
I think DS9's introduction of new concepts must have been one of those proverbial times they blindfolded the bronze bust of Roddenberry in Berman's office.
TNG actually broke a few Roddenberry's dictums - the space pirates in "Gambit" for one and mentions of Starfleet Intelligence.
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Old April 4 2013, 10:25 PM   #26
davejames
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

LiLiKitty wrote: View Post
I appreciate Roddenberry's vision, except for the "no conflict" policy that TNG was shackled with. The old truism is "conflict equals drama," therefore no conflict means no drama, or, at least, weak, limited conflict between characters. Thankfully, DS9 wasn't constrained this way. "In The Pale Moonlight" has deep, rich conflict that challenges Sisko as a character, making for great drama. The episode deserves all the kudos it gets.
I know TNG gets criticized for that a lot, but I thought the show actually made that idea work pretty well. The fact this was a crew of mature and professional officers who all respected and worked well together was a huge part of it's appeal, I think. And I wouldn't want them to be any other way.

If there was a problem with certain episodes, it was because of generally bad writing or a boring plot, not because of a lack of character conflict-- because there were certainly enough fantastic episodes that worked just fine without it.
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Old April 4 2013, 11:47 PM   #27
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
heard this episode created a lot of controversy, but its a bit less widely talked a bout then "Dear doctor" for some reason

anyone here who hates in the pale moonlight, who feels it was selling Rodenberry cheap to play on a love of angsts or whatever.
The Roddenberry crap was taken too far with the TNG's "evolved" humanity. Like some of the others, Trek was better without him in charge

I think it's one of the best Trek episodes.
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Old April 5 2013, 03:16 AM   #28
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Roddenberry's vision is great.

In The Pale Moonlight is great, though not Roddenberry's vision.

If the Romulans found out the truth after the war (Which they had no real way of doing), it's possible they'd declare war, but it wouldn't be out of outrage and anger. It'd be because they wanted to anyway and this gives them a reason, and they would only do it if they thought they could win. Which there's no way they could because the Klingon High Council ended up with an extremely pro-Federation Chancellor.

Just like if the Romulans went to war in The Enemy it wouldn't have been because of the outrage of their dead pilot, it would be because they wanted to go to war and the dead pilot made them look like the victims.

The Dear Doctor comparison is the exact opposite of In The Pale Moonlight. In The Pale Moonlight was, go against principle to save trillions of lives. Dear Doctor was, allow billions of people to die on vague principle, and it was a principle that didn't even make sense.

And I've heard the TNG writers say that the 'No conflict' edict forced them to be more creative, because it prevented them from falling back on normal TV tropes.
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Old April 5 2013, 03:48 AM   #29
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
heard this episode created a lot of controversy, but its a bit less widely talked a bout then "Dear doctor" for some reason

anyone here who hates in the pale moonlight, who feels it was selling Rodenberry cheap to play on a love of angsts or whatever.
I thought it was a great episode. I absolutely adore Garak. He's my favorite DS9 character.

So, if you don't like characters who are flawed, I recommend The Next Generation. All of the main characters are descendants of Mary Poppins and will quickly put you to .
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Old April 5 2013, 12:58 PM   #30
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Roddenberry's vision is great.

In The Pale Moonlight is great, though not Roddenberry's vision.
I think In the Pale Moonlight is a natural outgrowth of Roddenberry's vision. Whether it be Roddenberry of 1966 or 1987.

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