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Old March 31 2013, 10:23 AM   #226
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Harvey wrote: View Post
Never mind later this week -- found it!

TO: Fred Freiberger
FROM: Gene Roddenberry
DATE: May 23, 1968
SUBJECT: “Wink of an Eye” Story Outline 3/22/68 by Lee Cronin

(excerpted from a 3-page story memo)

I think also he will see that we don’t have enough inter-character relationships among our continuing people. We need conflicts, disagreements, rich personality relationship between Kirk, Spock, McCoy and others. Otherwise, our “television family group” becomes a rather uninteresting assortment of similar individuals who stand around throwing each other lines and generally agreeing with each other.
Of course, Roddenberry reversed his position on inter-character conflict twenty years later, which, ironically, caused quite a bit of inter-personal conflict behind the scenes of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
He was 100% right the first time! It was bad that, in order to depict more normal interactions between people, Voyager had to have a half-Maquis crew, Deep Space Nine had to be set on a frontier space station where humans are the minority and Enterprise had to be set 200 years before this evolved TNG vision of humanity.
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Old April 2 2013, 04:23 AM   #227
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

No money is NOT on the worst list by any means!
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Old April 2 2013, 12:06 PM   #228
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

^ It's on mine.
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Old April 2 2013, 12:14 PM   #229
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
The "no female Starfleet captains" would also tend to make the Federation look ass-backwards when we saw a female Romulan commander a few episodes earlier.
I personally interpreted it as Kirk's career precluded a relationship with Janice, he choose it over her.

But it could be seen another way, just as it sounds coming out of Janice's mouth. Science fiction often depicts societies in the future that are different than our own. It might be that at that particular time in history Human females actually could not be assigned to the posting of Captain, that there was a "glass ceiling" in place, there had been one for some years, and would be for another twenty odd years in the Trek universe.

There no requirement that the mid 23rd century be a exact analog of the early 21st century. Even today among the western nations, it quite rare for a female officer to be given command of a combatant naval vessel.

CaptainStoner wrote: View Post
No money is NOT on the worst list by any means!
Step out of the "in-universe" for a moment, and look at it from a story telling point of view. Having money in the story, with all the things that come with that, adds a level of complexity to the life's of the characters that otherwise would be absent.

Having no money would be simplistic and easy. It'd be like having a planet with one climate (desert, forest, ice). One race. One culture. One religion. One style of dress. "In-universe," (out of range of the cameras) the worlds visited likely aren't the same everywhere, they're complex and diverse

So "in-universe" the bolt of cloth did come out of Beverly's pay, and the poker games did have monetary gambling, the O'Brien's wedding gift from the replicator was deducted from Worf's account. And when you get food and drink in Ten Forward, you do pay for it.

yousirname wrote: View Post
Again, your interpretation renders the statement meaningless.
Tell you what, let us cut this down to a basic fact of the show ... WE SEE AND HEAR THEM USING MONEY.

Take for example the house we see Kirk in (Generations). Kirk clearly states that he owned the house, and he sold the house at some point. While there is some debate, the usual interpretation is that the time period where Kirk is cooking the eggs is between TMP and TWOK. So prior to the events of TVH, Kirk owned a piece of real estate, that he would sell.

Scotty bought a boat, Uhura tried to buy a tribble.

yousirname wrote: View Post
Ronald D. Moore wrote:
By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that.
This is one of the quotes I usually add to debates on this subject. The writers of the show lived in a society with a market economy, this is why (despite Roddenberry's wish) money and monetary reference keep making their way into the episodes. It's how for instants a Federation member got a major bank. And Quark was able to sell his shuttle in Earth's system for scrap. And a corporation within the Federation was able to own entire planets.

Now only a few episodes before, Jake personally engaged in a business transaction that resulted in Jake acquiring ... currency (GPL)
And he also 'sells' his first article, and receives no payment. Again, irretrievably self-contradictory.
The difference there of course is Jake actual did received monetary value for the sell of the land. It was made clear in the example of the book that Jake (as he said himself) was indeed employing a figure of speech.

What is in the least "self-contradictory" about any of that?

... irretrievably ...
I don't think you're using that correctly.

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Old April 2 2013, 12:40 PM   #230
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Metryq wrote: View Post
"Nanny" aliens, such as Gary Seven and Questor of THE QUESTOR TAPES.

If a civilization cannot—and is not allowed to—overcome its own faults, then it is baggage. Or as Spock said in "The Day of the Dove": "Those who hate and fight must stop themselves, Doctor. Otherwise, it is not stopped."

Alternatively, "the only kind of discipline is self-discipline."
Plus, what Gary Seven did as told by Greg Cox in the novels he wrote just caused said nuclear holocaust to happen anyway.

Harvey wrote: View Post
Never mind later this week -- found it!

TO: Fred Freiberger
FROM: Gene Roddenberry
DATE: May 23, 1968
SUBJECT: “Wink of an Eye” Story Outline 3/22/68 by Lee Cronin

(excerpted from a 3-page story memo)

I think also he will see that we don’t have enough inter-character relationships among our continuing people. We need conflicts, disagreements, rich personality relationship between Kirk, Spock, McCoy and others. Otherwise, our “television family group” becomes a rather uninteresting assortment of similar individuals who stand around throwing each other lines and generally agreeing with each other.
Of course, Roddenberry reversed his position on inter-character conflict twenty years later, which, ironically, caused quite a bit of inter-personal conflict behind the scenes of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Methinks that on the last one, Roddenberry was becoming senile and out of it as far as TV writing was concerned, and he should have been kicked upstairs just like he was when the movies with the original cast were being made.
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Old April 2 2013, 01:55 PM   #231
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

One of Roddenberry's ideas that bugs me is the attitude to death in TNG. In 'The Bonding' we see that children are expected to repress their own feelings concerning the death of someone close to them and mourning someone is considered 'backward'.
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Old April 2 2013, 03:27 PM   #232
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Capt_Pickirk wrote: View Post
One of Roddenberry's ideas that bugs me is the attitude to death in TNG. In 'The Bonding' we see that children are expected to repress their own feelings concerning the death of someone close to them and mourning someone is considered 'backward'.

yes, and his attitude would actually be seen as psychologically unhealthy.
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Old April 2 2013, 04:10 PM   #233
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

No money or credit makes no logical sense. If you create such a society you should explain how it works. Before money was created people would barter or use weights of silver and gold as an early money. So in Roddenberry's universe you can go into a bar and order as many drinks as you like?
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Old April 2 2013, 04:33 PM   #234
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

ROBE wrote: View Post
So in Roddenberry's universe you can go into a bar and order as many drinks as you like?
No, because we've seen our heroes pay for things at many a bar, including one on Space Station K-7 which was run by a human.

Look, people can try to rationalize this all they want. The simple fact is that despite what Picard may want Lily to believe, we have seen on-screen evidence time and time and time again that Federation citizens do use money of some sort. From Scotty buying a boat to Crusher buying a bolt of fabric to Sisko buying real estate. There are tons of examples. Way too many to hand wave away.
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Old April 2 2013, 06:18 PM   #235
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Capt_Pickirk wrote: View Post
One of Roddenberry's ideas that bugs me is the attitude to death in TNG. In 'The Bonding' we see that children are expected to repress their own feelings concerning the death of someone close to them and mourning someone is considered 'backward'.
It was in the episode Neutral Zone that Crusher (iirc) said something to the effect of "people in the 20th century feared death."

She said it in a way as to suggest that people in the 24th century naturally didn't.

Thing there is we've seen people struggle to save the live's of others, rush friends to sickbay, and even duck behind rocks when fired upon. Are these the actions of individuals in a society that possessed no fear of death?

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Old April 2 2013, 07:12 PM   #236
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Roddenberry also stated there were no enlisted in Starfleet, again contradicted by episodes.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:50 PM   #237
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

CoveTom wrote: View Post
ROBE wrote: View Post
So in Roddenberry's universe you can go into a bar and order as many drinks as you like?
No, because we've seen our heroes pay for things at many a bar, including one on Space Station K-7 which was run by a human.

Look, people can try to rationalize this all they want. The simple fact is that despite what Picard may want Lily to believe, we have seen on-screen evidence time and time and time again that Federation citizens do use money of some sort. From Scotty buying a boat to Crusher buying a bolt of fabric to Sisko buying real estate. There are tons of examples. Way too many to hand wave away.
Also I believe in one of the last TNG episodes, Riker is talking to Quark and trying to get him to give up some information. Riker - I'm paraphrasing here - cashes in all the Federation credit vouchers he's accumulated at Quark's. So basically Riker gives Quark a specific sum of money (Federation credits) in exchange for information.
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Old April 3 2013, 12:24 AM   #238
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Capt_Pickirk wrote: View Post
One of Roddenberry's ideas that bugs me is the attitude to death in TNG. In 'The Bonding' we see that children are expected to repress their own feelings concerning the death of someone close to them and mourning someone is considered 'backward'.
Especially since the concept and fear of "death" is considered by many to be what fuels all aspects of humanities endeavors from religion to the sciences to everything in between and beyond.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:47 AM   #239
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Anyone who doesn't fear death, IS dead.
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Old April 3 2013, 05:11 AM   #240
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CaptainStoner wrote: View Post
No money is NOT on the worst list by any means!
Step out of the "in-universe" for a moment, and look at it from a story telling point of view. Having money in the story, with all the things that come with that, adds a level of complexity to the life's of the characters that otherwise would be absent.

Having no money would be simplistic and easy. It'd be like having a planet with one climate (desert, forest, ice). One race. One culture. One religion. One style of dress. "In-universe," (out of range of the cameras) the worlds visited likely aren't the same everywhere, they're complex and diverse

So "in-universe" the bolt of cloth did come out of Beverly's pay, and the poker games did have monetary gambling, the O'Brien's wedding gift from the replicator was deducted from Worf's account. And when you get food and drink in Ten Forward, you do pay for it.

Tell you what, let us cut this down to a basic fact of the show ... WE SEE AND HEAR THEM USING MONEY.

Take for example the house we see Kirk in (Generations). Kirk clearly states that he owned the house, and he sold the house at some point. While there is some debate, the usual interpretation is that the time period where Kirk is cooking the eggs is between TMP and TWOK. So prior to the events of TVH, Kirk owned a piece of real estate, that he would sell.

Scotty bought a boat, Uhura tried to buy a tribble.

This is one of the quotes I usually add to debates on this subject. The writers of the show lived in a society with a market economy, this is why (despite Roddenberry's wish) money and monetary reference keep making their way into the episodes. It's how for instants a Federation member got a major bank. And Quark was able to sell his shuttle in Earth's system for scrap. And a corporation within the Federation was able to own entire planets.
T'Girl is on her game.

I'd say Picard's FIRST CONTACT line about "the economics of the 24th century" was the writer handing us a simplistic fairy tale of future socialist utopia. It was doubly insulting to our intelligence because there was no economic thought behind it and no respect for past continuity.

Kirk's ST4 line, "These people are still using money," was probably intended as a statement of the same lefty Hollywood fairy tale, and similarly insulting in its vacuity, but it can be set aside as a reference to physical currency as others have said. Picard's line is unworkable and inexcusable.
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