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Old April 3 2013, 03:02 AM   #76
SeerSGB
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

1) Was it ever proven that Cain's sanction of torture 'netted any actionable intelligence? For that matter, once any useful info had been gleamed, why continue the rape and torture, beyond petty desire to hurt Gina.

2) By arguing that it was "guerrilla war tactics" then that argument basically says "it's okay to rape and torture" the "good guys" so long as the other guy is using "guerrilla war tactics"

Cain was a sick person and a poor Commander. It isn't even about traveling to Earth. Once she realized that the Cylons had other interests (re: Galactica) she should have rounded up as many civvie and military survivors as she could and headed off the chart for a planet they could colonize.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:05 AM   #77
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Cain's crimes went far beyond torturing one Cylon.
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a reference to Hitler.


There have been at least several well-considered rebuttals of the OP not invoking Hitler in this thread.
And I've responded to those rebuttals. Nobody has addressed my reference of South Korea's former leader without invoking godwin's law (as a practice I tend not to respond when godwin's law is invoked...and I think South Koreans would find that offensive). Nobody has addressed my point about scorched Earth warfare (purposefully destroying civilian infrastructure and food supplies as a strategy in and of itself) including it being used by the Union...contrasting that with Cain just scavenging for parts her ship needed. And nobody has addressed my point about everybody using torture during war including a superpower that wasn't in danger of an existential threat and the cylons themselves in that universe.

These points taken in totality address all of Cain's abuses and puts them in context. War is ugly folks and what Cain did was relatively mild.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 03:38 AM.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:22 AM   #78
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
1) Was it ever proven that Cain's sanction of torture 'netted any actionable intelligence? For that matter, once any useful info had been gleamed, why continue the rape and torture, beyond petty desire to hurt Gina.

2) By arguing that it was "guerrilla war tactics" then that argument basically says "it's okay to rape and torture" the "good guys" so long as the other guy is using "guerrilla war tactics"
Talk about strawmen...
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Old April 3 2013, 03:28 AM   #79
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
1) Was it ever proven that Cain's sanction of torture 'netted any actionable intelligence? For that matter, once any useful info had been gleamed, why continue the rape and torture, beyond petty desire to hurt Gina.

2) By arguing that it was "guerrilla war tactics" then that argument basically says "it's okay to rape and torture" the "good guys" so long as the other guy is using "guerrilla war tactics"
Talk about strawmen...
Is rape/torture a valid tactic, yes or no? If it's valid for "us", it's valid for "them". It's a simple question: Either you believe and support rape and torture as a valid means of gathering military intelligence, or you don't. You either believe it's "right" or that it's "wrong". None of the bullshit about everyone does/has done it, that doesn't make it right or justified.

And I missed one up thread about Gina blowing up Cloud 9: Remember Baltar gave her the nuke, dumped her, and left her suicidal. So it was largely Baltar's fault that the new colony got found out by the 'nuke blast.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:41 AM   #80
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
1) Was it ever proven that Cain's sanction of torture 'netted any actionable intelligence? For that matter, once any useful info had been gleamed, why continue the rape and torture, beyond petty desire to hurt Gina.

2) By arguing that it was "guerrilla war tactics" then that argument basically says "it's okay to rape and torture" the "good guys" so long as the other guy is using "guerrilla war tactics"
Talk about strawmen...
Is rape/torture a valid tactic, yes or no? If it's valid for "us", it's valid for "them". It's a simple question: Either you believe and support rape and torture as a valid means of gathering military intelligence, or you don't. You either believe it's "right" or that it's "wrong". None of the bullshit about everyone does/has done it, that doesn't make it right or justified.
I don't look at it like that. If you ask the South Koreans if their dictator was wrong to torture/murder/oppress their people. They will likely tell you yes, but to put things in context and that during hard times, such things can be overlooked if the leader is a great leader doing good things like they tell you their dictator was (minus the opression) . I think everything has to be looked at in context and if you look at what Cain did in the context of war, it was pretty mild. If you ask a black man if Lincoln wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 03:54 AM.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:53 AM   #81
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post

Talk about strawmen...
Is rape/torture a valid tactic, yes or no? If it's valid for "us", it's valid for "them". It's a simple question: Either you believe and support rape and torture as a valid means of gathering military intelligence, or you don't. You either believe it's "right" or that it's "wrong". None of the bullshit about everyone does/has done it, that doesn't make it right or justified.
I don't look at it like that. If you ask the South Koreans if their dictator was wrong to torture/murder/oppress their people. They will likely tell you yes, but to put things in context and that during hard times, such things can be overlooked if the leader is a great leader doing good things like they tell you their dictator was (minus the opression) . I think everything has to be looked at in context and if you look at what Cain did in the context of war, it was pretty mild.
A very ends justifies the means POV, eh? Context does not make it right. And by that argument, you condone the enemy doing the same thing to your troops; cause from the context of the enemy's POV it's necessary.

Assuming for a moment that she did gain some short term useful intelligence, once the "value" of Gina was drained why continue to allow the rape and torture? Gina was not a high value assets, the Cylons seemed not to care that she was there--if they even knew she was there, she was catatonic and unresponsive (nothing more than a fuck toy for the crew), so why even keep her alive? Unless it was to further her humiliation and make her "pay" for breaking Cain's heart. Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:57 AM   #82
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Is rape/torture a valid tactic, yes or no? If it's valid for "us", it's valid for "them". It's a simple question: Either you believe and support rape and torture as a valid means of gathering military intelligence, or you don't. You either believe it's "right" or that it's "wrong". None of the bullshit about everyone does/has done it, that doesn't make it right or justified.
I don't look at it like that. If you ask the South Koreans if their dictator was wrong to torture/murder/oppress their people. They will likely tell you yes, but to put things in context and that during hard times, such things can be overlooked if the leader is a great leader doing good things like they tell you their dictator was (minus the opression) . I think everything has to be looked at in context and if you look at what Cain did in the context of war, it was pretty mild.
A very ends justifies the means POV, eh? Context does not make it right. And by that argument, you condone the enemy doing the same thing to your troops; cause from the context of the enemy's POV it's necessary.

Assuming for a moment that she did gain some short term useful intelligence, once the "value" of Gina was drained why continue to allow the rape and torture? Gina was not a high value assets, the Cylons seemed not to care that she was there--if they even knew she was there, she was catatonic and unresponsive (nothing more than a fuck toy for the crew), so why even keep her alive? Unless it was to further her humiliation and make her "pay" for breaking Cain's heart. Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
I concede that personal feelings might've played a role in that, but I think it was mainly for intelligence. I think personal betrayal played a minimal role in Cain's ruthless tactics, evidenced by the fact that her ruthlessness began before the betrayal.


If you ask a black man if Lincoln was wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (purposely destroying civilian infrastructure and food...you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?
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Old April 3 2013, 04:00 AM   #83
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
Damn straight. I cheered when Gina blew Cain's brains out: justice.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:02 AM   #84
SeerSGB
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post

I don't look at it like that. If you ask the South Koreans if their dictator was wrong to torture/murder/oppress their people. They will likely tell you yes, but to put things in context and that during hard times, such things can be overlooked if the leader is a great leader doing good things like they tell you their dictator was (minus the opression) . I think everything has to be looked at in context and if you look at what Cain did in the context of war, it was pretty mild.
A very ends justifies the means POV, eh? Context does not make it right. And by that argument, you condone the enemy doing the same thing to your troops; cause from the context of the enemy's POV it's necessary.

Assuming for a moment that she did gain some short term useful intelligence, once the "value" of Gina was drained why continue to allow the rape and torture? Gina was not a high value assets, the Cylons seemed not to care that she was there--if they even knew she was there, she was catatonic and unresponsive (nothing more than a fuck toy for the crew), so why even keep her alive? Unless it was to further her humiliation and make her "pay" for breaking Cain's heart. Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
I concede that personal feelings might've played a role in that, but I think it was mainly for intelligence. I think personal betrayal played a minimal role in Cain's ruthless tactics, evidenced by the fact that her ruthlessness began before the betrayal.


If you ask a black man if Lincoln wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (purposely destroying civilian infrastructure and food...you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?
Probably not as much support as you would like to think. Especially considering that they were in the line of fire--so to speak.

And Cain's tactics were ruthless and suicidal. Gina, was about "you hurt me, I'll hurt you worse". Again, once the intelligence dried up, why continue to rape and torture her.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:06 AM   #85
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

A very ends justifies the means POV, eh? Context does not make it right. And by that argument, you condone the enemy doing the same thing to your troops; cause from the context of the enemy's POV it's necessary.

Assuming for a moment that she did gain some short term useful intelligence, once the "value" of Gina was drained why continue to allow the rape and torture? Gina was not a high value assets, the Cylons seemed not to care that she was there--if they even knew she was there, she was catatonic and unresponsive (nothing more than a fuck toy for the crew), so why even keep her alive? Unless it was to further her humiliation and make her "pay" for breaking Cain's heart. Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
I concede that personal feelings might've played a role in that, but I think it was mainly for intelligence. I think personal betrayal played a minimal role in Cain's ruthless tactics, evidenced by the fact that her ruthlessness began before the betrayal.


If you ask a black man if Lincoln wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (purposely destroying civilian infrastructure and food...you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?
Probably not as much support as you would like to think. Especially considering that they were in the line of fire--so to speak.

And Cain's tactics were ruthless and suicidal. Gina, was about "you hurt me, I'll hurt you worse". Again, once the intelligence dried up, why continue to rape and torture her.
I concede, that personal feelings may have played a role there. But they might not have since Cain's ruthless actions started before the torture...so its hard to differentiate without the show clearing it up. If you asked black people today, or if you read the history books and what's taught in class rooms, they'll tell you of course Lincoln made the right move.
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Old April 3 2013, 04:09 AM   #86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post

I concede that personal feelings might've played a role in that, but I think it was mainly for intelligence. I think personal betrayal played a minimal role in Cain's ruthless tactics, evidenced by the fact that her ruthlessness began before the betrayal.


If you ask a black man if Lincoln wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (purposely destroying civilian infrastructure and food...you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?
Probably not as much support as you would like to think. Especially considering that they were in the line of fire--so to speak.

And Cain's tactics were ruthless and suicidal. Gina, was about "you hurt me, I'll hurt you worse". Again, once the intelligence dried up, why continue to rape and torture her.
I concede, that personal feelings may have played a role there. But they might not have since Cain's ruthless actions started before the torture...so its hard to differentiate without the show clearing it up. If you asked black people today, or if you read the history books and what's taught in class rooms, they'll tell you of course Lincoln made the right move.
Today, yes. Then, not so much
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Old April 3 2013, 06:15 AM   #87
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

diankra wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Consider waging a guerrilla war (many examples throughout history where a small guerrilla force has beat back a superpower) and fighting for your home vs. a pilgrimage to a mythical planet. In hindsight the choice might be wrong, but in reality the first choice is the more rational option that most people will take and many have previously succeeded in. Thus, you have to judge her based on that. And Adama's quote seems to say that her tactics were flawless in waging that strategy.
How many Cylon basestars did the Pegasus knock out? How many more could it hope to knock out before it ran out of luck, or just lost enough people to not be able to keep on fighting?
Unless she could hope to wipe out every Cylon with her single battlestar before her luck ran out, she didn't have a strategy any more than Butch and Sundance did in the final scenes. At best, she was just going out fighting, taking as many of 'Them' with her before she went.

That's a tactic. It works strategically if you're buying time for the other units to regroup and fight back once you've made your heroic sacrifice. But if you're all that's left (or think you are), then...
Should Janeway have set down on the first habitable planet? You could argue she should have. The odds were long yes, but some things are worth fighting for like home. Remember Adama would have fought as well. In the context of the universe, the odds might not have been as bleak as you portray. If Cain were still alive, commanding both the Pegasus and Galactica engaging in a guerrilla war, I don't think the odds are as bleak as you portray as displayed by their one successful collaboration with her in command of both. Adama acknowledged her tactics engaging in this type of warfare were pretty flawless. They might have run into other Battlestars that survived. Too much to hope for? You could argue a pilgrimage to a mythical planet was also.

The same things you guys are saying were said about other guerrilla warriors throughout history against mighty superpowers but many succeeded in what were considered long odds. Never count out a guerrilla force willing to fight and die for their homes.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 06:47 AM.
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Old April 3 2013, 10:04 AM   #88
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
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I guess its up to the audience to make the judgement. I thought it was the right call given that it was public insubordination in the middle of a battle, and had the potential to instigate mutinous action.
Well, since there was nobody left who could theoretically discipline Cain, mutiny was the only remaining thing that could potentially correct her decisions. Therefore mutiny actually became a necessary tool in the absense of alternatives.

Under normal circumstances, Cain would report to the Admiralty. The Admiralty would be appointed by the president. And the president would be elected by the people. Under such a system, the crew of the Pegasus could vote for an authority who would ultimately also control their own ship commander. All of that was gone though and Cain didn't bother to install any replacement mechanism. A sensible solution would have been to pass some kind of decree that the three most senior officers of the ship could remove the CO from command by unanimous vote or something like that (and that court-martials of any cremember can only be conducted by a panel consisting of said officers).
Caesar Julius and his nephew Caesar Augustus were much better than the triumvirate rule that preceded them respectively. It would be especially the case in this war situation with a tactically sound leader like Cain.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 10:48 AM.
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Old April 3 2013, 10:13 AM   #89
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

lol
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Old April 3 2013, 10:29 AM   #90
Wintertainment
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

so cain should've declared herself emperor?

i think you can say:

cain shook up the series, was an interesting obstacle for the regulars to overcome and michelle forbes is always awesome

however:

as a character her actions are undefendable (or so i thought). she consistently made the wrong decisions, whatever her justifications. and saying 'rape-torture is ok if it gets you some intelligence (it didn't though, did it?)' is disgusting.

would you still defend, if say leoben had raped starbuck. 'it's ok he was intelligence gathering and the humans are the insurgents in this scenario'. if you think it was a valid tactic for cain, then this would have to be a valid tactic for the cylons. and for the record there are no strawmen in that equivalency, so don't even try that shit.
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