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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 3 2013, 12:54 AM   #61
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

I really like Michelle Forbes as an actress, and I think she did a great job with Cain. That being said, I've rarely been as happy to see a villain take a round to the head as I was to see Cain get killed. Whatever part of Cain was human checked out a long time ago.

As for defending her: There's lines you don't cross, even in war, no matter how shitty you and your ship are having it. Makes me feel bad for the other female members of the Pegasus's crew. I got the feeling that the jackals lining up to rape Gina would have been deterred by something as simple as their victim being fully human.
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Old April 3 2013, 01:56 AM   #62
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Nothing Cain did made any sense from a rational standpoint. Her actions were not going to do anything but get them killed, and doom what few civilians they encountered. Being under her command was a death sentence, and her XO was right to recognize it, albeit too late.

It wasn't a question of being "tough" or "soft," but one of making smart decisions that maximize limited resources and preserve human lives above all else. Striking back at the Cylons for petty revenge made no rational sense at all. Their best bet was to take all the people and equipment they could and high-tail it away from the Colonies and any Cylons they encountered.

That's to say nothing of using Gina as the crew's living fuck doll. There is no way to justify that at all, ever, under any circumstances. The term for it is "war crime." Perhaps those defending Cain should look it up, because she was a war criminal, many times over. There was just no civilian authority to hold her accountable anymore.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:17 AM   #63
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Torture has been used by both "good guys" and "bad guys" throughout history.
I think you should reconsider your definition of "good guys".
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Old April 3 2013, 02:36 AM   #64
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Torture has been used by both "good guys" and "bad guys" throughout history.
I think you should reconsider your definition of "good guys".
That was the point. Its used by everybody on all sides during war. America used it when it was a superpower, not in danger of any existential threat. To crucify Cain for torturing one person is wrong.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:39 AM   #65
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Not considering Cain to be a "good leader" or the "best option" is not the same as "crucifying" her. Nice straw man.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:40 AM   #66
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Long before Cain was a character, the Abu Ghraib episode firmly established that our enemies were not really human and their pretenses of suffering were merely a cunning ploy to torment us with guilt or win an unearned sympathy.

Later, Gina nuked the Cloud Nine to give away the fleet's location. The storyline says that Cain made a mistake in allowing the Cylon to live.

In the desperate effort to wrap up the mutiny arc, the show had Adama forthrightly state that Roslin was correct in forbidding further combat when the war was lost. Any further dialogue that contradicts this, an explicit condemnation of everything the Cain does in pursuit of a wrong strategy, can only mean one of two things. Either Adama and Roslin were wrong, which seems an insane interpretation. Or, Cain was meant to be a tragic or maybe even noble figure, not a psychopath or villain. An antihero?
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Old April 3 2013, 02:42 AM   #67
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Not considering Cain to be a "good leader" or the "best option" is not the same as "crucifying" her. Nice straw man.
Read the other comments about Cain torturing one person and I'd call it crucifying/condemning.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:43 AM   #68
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

For me, the key point is that Adama says "Tactically, she did nothing wrong." As an earlier poster pointed out, tactics win battles, strategy wins wars. Sometimes being willing to lose a battle that can be won but isn't worth winning is what allows you to win the war. Cain was too interested in being ready for the next battle.
In this case, the ultimate 'war' was the survival of the Colonial species, and abandoning civilians or raiding them for supplies was the wrong strategic call unless there was no chance of preserving them (but of course, to quote Adama's success in preserving his fleet as proof that there was invokes 20-20 hindsight, so it doesn't prove that she was wrong to take the decision under the circumstances).
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Old April 3 2013, 02:43 AM   #69
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Not considering Cain to be a "good leader" or the "best option" is not the same as "crucifying" her. Nice straw man.
Read the other comments about Cain torturing one person and I'd call it crucifying/condemning.
Cain's crimes went far beyond torturing one Cylon.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:48 AM   #70
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

diankra wrote: View Post
For me, the key point is that Adama says "Tactically, she did nothing wrong." As an earlier poster pointed out, tactics win battles, strategy wins wars. Sometimes being willing to lose a battle that can be won but isn't worth winning is what allows you to win the war. Cain was too interested in being ready for the next battle.
In this case, the ultimate 'war' was the survival of the Colonial species, and abandoning civilians or raiding them for supplies was the wrong strategic call unless there was no chance of preserving them (but of course, to quote Adama's success in preserving his fleet as proof that there was invokes 20-20 hindsight, so it doesn't prove that she was wrong to take the decision under the circumstances).
I agree with the bolded, but disagree with the rest. Consider waging a guerrilla war (many examples throughout history where a small guerrilla force has beat back a superpower) and fighting for your home vs. a pilgrimage to a mythical planet. In hindsight the choice might be wrong, but in reality the first choice is the more rational option that most people will take and many have previously succeeded in. Thus, you have to judge her based on that. And Adama's quote seems to say that her tactics were flawless in waging that strategy.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:55 AM   #71
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Not considering Cain to be a "good leader" or the "best option" is not the same as "crucifying" her. Nice straw man.
Read the other comments about Cain torturing one person and I'd call it crucifying/condemning.
Cain's crimes went far beyond torturing one Cylon.
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a fulfilling of Godwin's law.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:56 AM   #72
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
diankra wrote: View Post
For me, the key point is that Adama says "Tactically, she did nothing wrong." As an earlier poster pointed out, tactics win battles, strategy wins wars. Sometimes being willing to lose a battle that can be won but isn't worth winning is what allows you to win the war. Cain was too interested in being ready for the next battle.
In this case, the ultimate 'war' was the survival of the Colonial species, and abandoning civilians or raiding them for supplies was the wrong strategic call unless there was no chance of preserving them (but of course, to quote Adama's success in preserving his fleet as proof that there was invokes 20-20 hindsight, so it doesn't prove that she was wrong to take the decision under the circumstances).
I agree with the bolded, but disagree with the rest. Consider waging a guerrilla war (many examples throughout history where a small guerrilla force has beat back a superpower) and fighting for your home vs. a pilgrimage to a mythical planet. In hindsight the choice might be wrong, but in reality the first choice is the more rational option that most people will take. Thus, you have to judge her based on that. And Adama's quote seems to say that her tactics were flawless in waging that strategy.
But as I said up thread, the guerilla warfare on has it's advantages when you're trying to drive out an occupying force.

It achieves nothing when they've pretty much destroyed your entire civilization and there's nothing to go back to.

By fleeing with the civllians, Cain would have helped ensure that mankind wasn't totally and 100% wiped out.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:57 AM   #73
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post

Read the other comments about Cain torturing one person and I'd call it crucifying/condemning.
Cain's crimes went far beyond torturing one Cylon.
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a reference to Hitler.


There have been at least several well-considered rebuttals of the OP not invoking Hitler in this thread.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:59 AM   #74
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Cain's crimes went far beyond torturing one Cylon.
I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a reference to Hitler.


There have been at least several well-considered rebuttals of the OP not invoking Hitler in this thread.
Indeed; at this rate they'll be able to crew a battlestar completely with straw men.
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Old April 3 2013, 03:01 AM   #75
diankra
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Consider waging a guerrilla war (many examples throughout history where a small guerrilla force has beat back a superpower) and fighting for your home vs. a pilgrimage to a mythical planet. In hindsight the choice might be wrong, but in reality the first choice is the more rational option that most people will take and many have previously succeeded in. Thus, you have to judge her based on that. And Adama's quote seems to say that her tactics were flawless in waging that strategy.
How many Cylon basestars did the Pegasus knock out? How many more could it hope to knock out before it ran out of luck, or just lost enough people to not be able to keep on fighting?
Unless she could hope to wipe out every Cylon with her single battlestar before her luck ran out, she didn't have a strategy any more than Butch and Sundance did in the final scenes. At best, she was just going out fighting, taking as many of 'Them' with her before she went.

That's a tactic. It works strategically if you're buying time for the other units to regroup and fight back once you've made your heroic sacrifice. But if you're all that's left (or think you are), then...
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