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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 2 2013, 07:05 PM   #31
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

sidious618 wrote: View Post
Cain allowed Gina to be repeatedly raped by soldiers for fun. Anyone who thinks Cain is admirable should sit with that one for a little bit and if you still think she's admirable after that then please make sure you never allow yourself to be in a position of power as you clearly have no sense of decency.
I think it's important to mention that Cain hadn't had the same experiences with the Cylons that Adama's gang had. She and her crew viewed them as toasters that were faking any and all emotions, just like Adama's crew did early on.

The Pegasus is what the Galactica crew would have been like if they'd been a lot less lucky and not had a God helping them out all the time. That was the point of them and viewing them as the evil ship run by a villain is missing the point of everything that made the first 2 seasons and four episodes or so of NuBSG so excellent.
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Old April 2 2013, 07:17 PM   #32
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
sidious618 wrote: View Post
Cain allowed Gina to be repeatedly raped by soldiers for fun. Anyone who thinks Cain is admirable should sit with that one for a little bit and if you still think she's admirable after that then please make sure you never allow yourself to be in a position of power as you clearly have no sense of decency.
I think it's important to mention that Cain hadn't had the same experiences with the Cylons that Adama's gang had. She and her crew viewed them as toasters that were faking any and all emotions, just like Adama's crew did early on.
No, she was fully aware of their emotional capacity and was in fact specifically exploiting those emotions as a means to an end:

Cain is deeply stung by Inviere's betrayal, her feelings toward her erstwhile lover turned into hatred and scorn. Cain gives Alastair Thorne free rein in interrogating the Cylon for information, suggesting "pain ... degradation, fear, shame." This sets the tone for the interrogations, ultimately leading to measures such as gang rape.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Helena_Cain
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Old April 2 2013, 07:26 PM   #33
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

That line is from Razor, which fans generally agree screwed the character beyond recognition anyway. I am judging the character by her Season 2 appearance.
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Old April 2 2013, 07:49 PM   #34
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
That line is from Razor, which fans generally agree screwed the character beyond recognition anyway. I am judging the character by her Season 2 appearance.
Well, that's a convenient load of BS. I guess we can all just disregard anything that doesn't fit our particular argument then.

You responded to Sid's comment on her allowing Gina to be raped by saying they didn't know Cylon's were genuinely emotional beings at that time. But if you simply want to induce pain as a method of torture, there are far more expedient ways of doing so than through rape. Rape was chosen specifically to exploit those emotions mentioned above. You don't need it explicitly spelled out in Razor for their motives to be obvious, in S2 or otherwise.

Nor was her portrayal in Razor significantly different than it was in Season 2. She was a dictatorial sociopath in both depictions.
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Old April 2 2013, 07:52 PM   #35
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

If Cylons were just cold, unfeeling machines, rape was not going to work anyway: Gina would just laugh at the pathetic attempts of humans to hurt her.

So, no: Cain ordered it precisely because she knew full well that Gina would feel the full physical and psychological torture of the abuse.

Try again.
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Old April 2 2013, 07:57 PM   #36
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
That line is from Razor, which fans generally agree screwed the character beyond recognition anyway. I am judging the character by her Season 2 appearance.
In other words you're picking and choosing in order to prove you point.

Well done.

At the end of the day, Cain got herself shot dead, Adama got to see a new world, a new home for mankind.

Also if you go back and watch the mini-series Adama was pretty much on the verge of doing very much what Cain did - take what they needed and leave the survivors to fend for themselves.

The RTF showed more sense than Cain did. They didn't hang around seeking revenge - they got the hell out Dodge and looked for a new life.

All Cain's actions would have succeeded in doing is getting the Pegasus destroyed having done no real damage to the Cylons. Sure she might have had a few victories by they would have been Pyrrhic to the end.

Guerrilla tactics are well and good when you're fighting an occupying force whether it's 1940s France or New Caprica. Going Guerrilla against them after they've destroyed 99% of your society achieves nothing.

I guess Cain can be summed up the adage - when you set out for revenge, dig two graves.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:24 PM   #37
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I think it's important to mention that Cain hadn't had the same experiences with the Cylons that Adama's gang had. She and her crew viewed them as toasters that were faking any and all emotions, just like Adama's crew did early on.
It would be impossible for me to see someone I've been emotionally involved with as a toaster. And I would hope most decent human beings wouldn't either. And as mentioned already in the thread, everything else also suggests she did not.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:27 PM   #38
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Marc wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, Cain got herself shot dead, Adama got to see a new world, a new home for mankind.
Adama would be dead too if it wasn't for constant divine intervention in the guise of citizens in his fleet constantly experiencing visions, having God-messengers in their heads which gave them the word of the almighty, and Starbuck being resurrected as an angel with the knowledge of what to do in order to get to Earth.

Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices. If God hadn't for some entirely unexplained reason decided to bombard the Galactica with riddles, visions and resurrections then they'd be as dead as Cain. All of them.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:32 PM   #39
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post

Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices. If God hadn't for some entirely unexplained reason decided to bombard the Galactica with riddles, visions and resurrections then they'd be as dead as Cain. All of them.
But none of the above excuses the actions of Cain.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:34 PM   #40
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote:

Adama would be dead too if it wasn't for constant divine intervention in the guise of citizens in his fleet constantly experiencing visions, having God-messengers in their heads which gave them the word of the almighty, and Starbuck being resurrected as an angel with the knowledge of what to do in order to get to Earth.

Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices. If God hadn't for some entirel unexplained reason decided to bombard the Galactica with riddles, visions and resurrections then they'd be as dead as Cain. All of them.
That's true, but a lot of Cain's atrocities would have occurred even if she was bombarded with riddles and visions. Raiding civilians, murdering her XO... those things occurred very early on. As was pointed out, Adama was also ready to abandon civilians and charge into battle, but decided not to. And this was before any of the mystical stuff.

It may be that Adama's group was offered those chances because of their initial choices.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:40 PM   #41
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
That's true, but a lot of Cain's atrocities would have occurred even if she was bombarded with riddles and visions. Raiding civilians, murdering her XO... those things occurred very early on.
And they were done in sight of the greater good. To misquote a very great man, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the human race.

Cain made some wrong choices but she was under an insane amount of pressure and for all she knew was protecting the only existing humans. She couldn't afford to be soft.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:43 PM   #42
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Silvercrest;7889158That's true, but a lot of Cain's atrocities would have occurred even if she [I wrote:
was[/I] bombarded with riddles and visions. Raiding civilians, murdering her XO... those things occurred very early on.
And they were done in sight of the greater good. To misuote a very great man, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the human race.
But a sane person would know that they couldn't save the human race by taking the Cylons head-on. The only way to "win" was to survive and rebuild elsewhere. Live to fight another day.

Clearly she was psychopathic. Whether she always was or was as a result of the apocalypse is up to individual viewers to decide.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:46 PM   #43
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices.
Protect remnants of civillisation... or plunder them and go on a reckless and pointless attack.

Perhaps "god" thought she wasn't worth the assistance...
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Old April 2 2013, 08:48 PM   #44
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

BillJ wrote: View Post
But a sane person would know that they couldn't save the human race by taking the Cylons head-on. The only way to "win" was to survive and rebuild elsewhere. Live to fight another day.

Clearly she was psychopathic.
She was emotionally compromised and wasn't thinking logically but this doesn't translate as psychopathic. I find very few political decisions to be sensible or humane, it doesn't mean I believe David Cameron is a psychopath.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:50 PM   #45
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
And they were done in sight of the greater good. To misquote a very great man, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the human race.
Raiding civilians for the greater good of... what?

I hope you're not going to suggest she had to destroy the village in order to save it.



Edit: And I'm not necessarily arguing that she's psychopathic. Only that her decisions were made from a very narrow-minded, selfish and inflexible point of view. I can't find fault with her tactics either, but I see plenty of fault with her strategy.
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