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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 2 2013, 02:05 PM   #16
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain was the type of commander I'd respect. Adama was a touchy-feely pussy and hypocrite in comparison. He'd casually forgive his friends for commiting acts of high treason (Helo, Starbuck, Lee!), while allowing men that commit lesser crimes to be severely punished. I was with Tom Zarek all the way, the Adama/Roslin regime was utterly loopy. If the head of the military is fraking the religious fanatic leader, I'd want out of that fleet too.

Also, Michelle Forbez is very bed-able.

RandyS wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I think she was a psycho.
True enough, but then, who on that show WASN'T?
Romo Lampkin.
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Old April 2 2013, 02:15 PM   #17
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Guerrilla war vs. some religious pilgrimage to find a mythical planet. I'd go with Guerrilla war.
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Old April 2 2013, 02:20 PM   #18
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain was a vicious putz. I was glad to see her dead.
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Old April 2 2013, 02:20 PM   #19
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Summary execution for insubordination during battle can be a proper punishment. Especially considering she could've had a mutiny on her hands if she didn't send a strong message.
The point is, who decides which is "proper punishment"? Cain did. With nothing or nobody around who could check, countermand or correct her decisions. She made the rules, she interpreted the rules, she was the highest authority on all matters with no authority whatsoever above her.

In a normally functioning military, there are institutions who Cain has to report to, institutions who constantly evaluate her actions and could theoretically discipline her at any time. The problem is that there was nobody left who could decide whether Cain's actions were criminal or not... except maybe her XO, but she quickly killed him when he attempted to do just that. She alone decided whether her own actions were rightful. And in the end she decided that any action she took was automatically justified, no matter what this action entailed.

So, the basic problem was that nobody left in the universe could initiate a court-martial against Cain... not even in theory.
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Old April 2 2013, 02:29 PM   #20
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Summary execution for insubordination during battle can be a proper punishment. Especially considering she could've had a mutiny on her hands if she didn't send a strong message.
The point is, who decides which is "proper punishment"? Cain did. With nothing or nobody around who could check, countermand or correct her decisions. She made the rules, she interpreted the rules, she was the highest authority on all matters with no authority whatsoever above her.

In a normally functioning military, there are institutions who Cain has to report to, institutions who constantly evaluate her actions and could theoretically discipline her at any time. The problem is that there was nobody left who could decide whether Cain's actions were criminal or not... except maybe her XO, but she quickly killed him when he attempted to do just that. She alone decided whether her own actions were rightful. And in the end she decided that any action she took was automatically justified, no matter what this action entailed.

So, the basic problem was that nobody left in the universe could initiate a court-martial against Cain... not even in theory.
I guess its up to the audience to make the judgement. I thought it was the right call given that it was public insubordination in the middle of a battle, and had the potential to instigate mutinous action.
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Old April 2 2013, 02:45 PM   #21
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
I guess its up to the audience to make the judgement. I thought it was the right call given that it was public insubordination in the middle of a battle, and had the potential to instigate mutinous action.
Well, since there was nobody left who could theoretically discipline Cain, mutiny was the only remaining thing that could potentially correct her decisions. Therefore mutiny actually became a necessary tool in the absense of alternatives.

Under normal circumstances, Cain would report to the Admiralty. The Admiralty would be appointed by the president. And the president would be elected by the people. Under such a system, the crew of the Pegasus could vote for an authority who would ultimately also control their own ship commander. All of that was gone though and Cain didn't bother to install any replacement mechanism. A sensible solution would have been to pass some kind of decree that the three most senior officers of the ship could remove the CO from command by unanimous vote or something like that (and that court-martials of any cremember can only be conducted by a panel consisting of said officers).
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Old April 2 2013, 02:49 PM   #22
Bosch571
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Summary execution for insubordination during battle can be a proper punishment. Especially considering she could've had a mutiny on her hands if she didn't send a strong message.
The point is, who decides which is "proper punishment"? Cain did. With nothing or nobody around who could check, countermand or correct her decisions. She made the rules, she interpreted the rules, she was the highest authority on all matters with no authority whatsoever above her.

In a normally functioning military, there are institutions who Cain has to report to, institutions who constantly evaluate her actions and could theoretically discipline her at any time. The problem is that there was nobody left who could decide whether Cain's actions were criminal or not... except maybe her XO, but she quickly killed him when he attempted to do just that. She alone decided whether her own actions were rightful. And in the end she decided that any action she took was automatically justified, no matter what this action entailed.

So, the basic problem was that nobody left in the universe could initiate a court-martial against Cain... not even in theory.
I guess its up to the audience to make the judgement. I thought it was the right call given that it was public insubordination in the middle of a battle, and had the potential to instigate mutinous action.
True but mutinous action might have been the preferred outcome. "I'm just following orders" doesn't excuse everything, especially from the second in command of the remaining military forces of the 12 colonies.

One person with this kind of power over the continued existence of humanity needs checks.
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Old April 2 2013, 03:21 PM   #23
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Guerrilla war vs. some religious pilgrimage to find a mythical planet. I'd go with Guerrilla war.
Cain never did anything as psycho as demand the people fly all their technology in to the sun . I'd have loved to have seen the public's reaction to that.

Joe: Yo, Billy. Adama and Roslin say we're burning all the ships and becoming farmers on that planet.
Billy: WTF. WHY!?
Joe: Well, after some discussion with the angels..
Billy: I knew we should have sided with Zarek.
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Old April 2 2013, 03:59 PM   #24
iguana_tonante
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Something that Dick Cheney recently said in a new documentary (...) reminded me of Cain.
That should have been your clue.
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Old April 2 2013, 04:30 PM   #25
stj
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

I never found BattleStar Galactica to be watchable on a long-term basis. Rather quickly I realized it was only of symptomatic interest as to attitudes to the war amongst a certain kind of people. I suppose it is therefore logical to regard Cheney's opinions and values as relevant to a 9/11 series. I have to skip over the details about Cain.

But, this is years later, after the trendy is over. How could we possibly take seriously a positive view of Cheney? And, by extension, a defense of Cain?
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Old April 2 2013, 04:39 PM   #26
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

I don't really get the Cheney comparison. Cheney essentially commanded the safest superpower on Earth at a time when there was no real threat. Cain is in command of a Battlestar that could be annihilated at any moment by a horde of killer robots that outnumber them severely.

She has much more right to make the tough choices. Choices that are generally rational because unlike Galactica, Cain doesn't have Gods and angels saving her ass or leading her to safety all the time.
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Old April 2 2013, 05:10 PM   #27
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Anyone who thinks Cain wasn't a psycho? I dare them to look at what she did to Juergen Belzen, to Gina (by proxy), and to the people on the civilian ships, and then come back here and repeat that.
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Old April 2 2013, 05:11 PM   #28
Stoo
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Screw Cain. I remember characters trying to apologise for her saying "she did what it took to survive". Which is arse. Survival would have been takin those civllian ships and going on the run, just like galactica did. Instead she was so obsessed with striking back she not only committed an atrocity to get parts for her ship, she then persisted with the attack even tho it was a blatant trap resulting in high casualties and shot the XO when he protested. What was it all even for? The war was lost.

The Old Man had his share of flaws too. So did most of the crew cos they were fucked up survivors of the end of civillisation. But they held onto some sense of both morality and perspective, while she was an extra order of magnitude of crazy.
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Old April 2 2013, 06:22 PM   #29
sidious618
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain allowed Gina to be repeatedly raped by soldiers for fun. Anyone who thinks Cain is admirable should sit with that one for a little bit and if you still think she's admirable after that then please make sure you never allow yourself to be in a position of power as you clearly have no sense of decency.
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Old April 2 2013, 06:31 PM   #30
FPAlpha
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post

Now with regard to the human rights abuses, let me just give a real world example where if the bolded statement made by Adama is true (that a leader is practically good), those types of abuses by a leader are outweighed by the good that is done. South Korea in 1961-1979 was ruled by a strongman/military dictator who engaged in murder, oppression and torture (pretty much everything Cain did...It became a democracy shortly after his rule). But he also modernized SK from an impoverished country to what's become the 13th largest economy in the world and a thriving, developed country. So what do the South Koreans think of his legacy? His rule is regarded so positively that they just elected his daughter the President.

When you're safe, powerful and sated, its easy to have morals. When you don't have these luxuries, someone like Cain is the best option.

What do you think of her?
Hitler has built highways and ramped up industrial production to the point of near full employment in Germany (he needed the highways for military reasons and the industry was built up with huge loans and to lay the foundations for his war engine).

It is honestly a dumb argument.. every dictator aims to appease the largest segment of the population. First through benevolence and gifts and when that comes crumbling down due to huge economic mistakes that benevolence invariably changes to oppression and rule by fear.

As Adama has said militarily she was a good officer.. she had experience, she ran a tight ship, she recognized talent and nurtured it and knew how to conduct a battle. That is not the issue.

The issue is that she willingly sacrificed civilians for her drive to get revenge, she shot capable officers who disagreed with her (bypassing due process present in any civilized military) and she willingly used torture (including rape) against the enemy.

This was the core of early BSG in what it wanted to tell.. if put under extreme pressure will you crack and abandon all civilization and decent human behaviour just to surive and win or will you stand by your principles even if it means death and defeat.

That theme came at a perfect time in our history when the US (and the rest of the western world) struggled with the same question.. how much are you willing to give up for the sake of security and how far will you bend or even break the rules to achieve that goal?

Cain was the antithesis to Adama.. someone who broke under pressure and dismantled her own humanity bit by bit until there was little, if anything left.
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