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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 1 2013, 01:35 PM   #16
Marsden
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
It always irked me that Spock let her off scot free. She was his legal property after the fight. Having heard her explanation and knowing she was treacherous and cold enough to get a man killed, Spock should have ordered her to go live in a Vulcan convent and scrub hospital toilets for the rest of her life.
Legal property? Like chatel? The Vulcans are the advanced civilization, right?

I think that legal property only pertained specifically to the ceremony itself and the marriage choices. The winner could legally marry her, whether she wanted, but that makes me wonder about Vulcan divorce lawyers? In a completely logical society, do they need to get divorced, why bother? They aren't ruled by their emotions so I don't think it would matter. I think that's the whole point of the Pon Farr, the Vulcans would die out as a species if they didn't feel the need to procreate at least some times, because when you're not ruled by lust and even love, why bother to get married and have kids. They are a real pain in the ass.
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Old April 1 2013, 05:43 PM   #17
Timewalker
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Marsden wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
It always irked me that Spock let her off scot free. She was his legal property after the fight. Having heard her explanation and knowing she was treacherous and cold enough to get a man killed, Spock should have ordered her to go live in a Vulcan convent and scrub hospital toilets for the rest of her life.
Legal property? Like chatel? The Vulcans are the advanced civilization, right?
T'Pau: Thee are prepared to become the property of the victor?
T'Pring: I am prepared.

Seems pretty clear to me - whoever wins literally becomes T'Pring's OWNER.
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Old April 1 2013, 07:00 PM   #18
Marsden
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Methinks there mayest been something lost in ye ole translation.

What is marriage if not the giving of oneself to another, but it's supposed to be mutual so no one of the couple is the "owner" except for some Asian cultures.
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Old April 1 2013, 07:12 PM   #19
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

You need to remember that T'Pring invoked a legal right that was very rarely used in modern times. To prevent frivolous or malicious "divorces" it was considered necessary to make the consequences for the woman something that would make her think several times before even considering it. Therefore, to make her literal property - evidently an old law that was "still on the books" - was deemed such a severe consequence that very few women were prepared to accept, ie. the legal and financial risks and loss of accompanying social status.
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Old April 1 2013, 07:49 PM   #20
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Interesting.

But, as an ancient law, possibly left as a means of cultural preservation, it is still very problematic as it allows modern day (future day?) slavery.

T'pring also seemed like she would be in control because she says, "if you leave I would have your name and your property* and Stonn would still be there" It doesn't sound like she is the property in that assessment.


*Does Spock have a house in the 'burbs? An apartment? Maybe a foot locker full of old trophies? It makes me what property Spock has.
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Old April 1 2013, 08:10 PM   #21
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

It's likely a law that is still on the books but not enforced, at least not in the literal sense. There are lots of laws like that in RL that are politically, socially, and ethically incorrect, yet they remain.

The victor, Spock, won T'Pring and had the legal right to marry her, ignore her, take her away with him, or give her away (which he did). She then became the property of Stonn, as he is the person to whom Spock gave her. What Stonn chooses to do about the situation has been the subject of many fanfics, some of which have portrayed them as honestly being in love, some as T'Pring being no more than an opportunistic schemer no matter which man she ends up with, and there are some where Stonn chooses to treat T'Pring as legal chattel because she caused him to "lose face" at the marriage ceremony.
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Old April 1 2013, 08:21 PM   #22
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Actually, I started writing a story where it was Spock who died, and Kirk has no choice but to take T'Pring (for reasons I have yet to establish in my story; I just want to explore some possibilities here...).
In order to fulfill Vulcan marriage traditions and to justify her presence aboard the Enterprise, T'Pring is "drafted" by the Vulcan science academy, and compelled be a civilian consultant to Starfleet. She would become Kirk's new science officer.

T'Pring: "Explain again why I am require to wear this skin tight catsuit?"

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Old April 1 2013, 09:42 PM   #23
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Marsden wrote: View Post
They aren't ruled by their emotions so I don't think it would matter.
The Vulcans are extremely "hot blooded," but took up a philosophy of stoicism and pure logic by choice. I'm sure there's more to pon farr than "Well, let's get it over with, or the species will die out."

Human societies have many things cloaked in ritual, yet never spell it out so bluntly as TV show dialog. Many sports are a vent for the natural competitiveness in our species, and many fans clamor as though the outcome of the game really mattered. (Those not current on their rabies shots even get themselves arrested for expressing their fandom.)

I agree with Zap about the Vulcan nunnery. T'Pring should have taken the fifth; what she admitted to sounds overtly criminal to me. But then, desperate and emotional people can rationalize almost anything...
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Old April 2 2013, 03:32 AM   #24
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Maybe I'm guilty of misinterpretation, but I am sensing some T'Pring hate here - which is a shame because I really like her. Don't get me wrong: I adore Spock and don't understand why anybody would prefer Stonn. But once I get past that...if she really didn't care for Spock, how many other options did she have?

We are left with the impression that she didn't have many. She could (1) Go through with the marriage ceremony with Spock, (2) She could have Spock and Stonn fight for her (which Stonn implies was the original plan, if I am remembering this episode correctly) and risk losing Stonn, the man she wanted, or (3) She could try something off the wall.

She went with #3. I kind of admire her moxie, and it seems to me that Spock did as well. Stonn seemed a bit out of his depth, though.

Last edited by JustKate; April 2 2013 at 03:48 AM.
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Old April 2 2013, 03:35 AM   #25
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

JustKate wrote: View Post
if she really didn't care for Spock, how many other options did she have?
This is an arranged marriage we're talking about. Where does "care" enter into it? They have no choice.
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Old April 2 2013, 03:45 AM   #26
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
JustKate wrote: View Post
if she really didn't care for Spock, how many other options did she have?
This is an arranged marriage we're talking about. Where does "care" enter into it? They have no choice.
Actually the fact that she does have options means that her opinion or feelings can be acted upon. It could still have gone against her if Spock insisted on keeping her, but she did have some opportunity to hope for a different outcome. And it still worked out for her: Spock won but didn't want her and so she got what she wanted.
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Old April 2 2013, 03:45 AM   #27
JustKate
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Re: Spock and T'Pring?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
JustKate wrote: View Post
if she really didn't care for Spock, how many other options did she have?
This is an arranged marriage we're talking about. Where does "care" enter into it? They have no choice.
For one thing it may have been arranged, but that doesn't mean they had never set eyes on each other. Spock in fact makes it clear that they had met since he talks about a ceremony where they touch each other (some sort of partial mind meld, I've always thought) so that they will supposedly be drawn to marriage at the same time. For all we know, they might have known each other since they were kids. Even here on Earth not all arranged marriages involve two strangers.

But what I really meant was that she didn't care to marry Spock, and that is pretty obviously the case.
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