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Old March 29 2013, 01:00 AM   #61
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Isn't Star Trek's genre considered 'Space opera'?

It kind of boggles my mind how somebody could think that the exact same kind of stories are soap operas just because they happen over several weeks instead of one week. That's a silly, arbitrary distinction. And can he really not tell the difference between Sopranos and a crappy soap where they just milk unearned sentiment to contrive anticipation?

I think your friend just came up with the 'soap opera' thing as a flip dismissal to avoid having to make a real argument.
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Old March 31 2013, 09:48 AM   #62
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post

It actually showed how much more powerful the Borg are than the Federation. Picard's orders were to investigate and keep the Borg busy while a fleet was being prepared to properly fight the Borg. Picard went in knowing it could well be a suicide mission or at best, a game of hide and seek, to keep the Borg occupied.
Yes, Picard knew from the start that the borg's military technology is far better than the federation's and that the borg massively outgun his ship.

He also knew that drones can easily teleport through federation shields and are, individually, more than a match for his men.
And he found out that the borg wanted him - personally.

Yet - there were no additional security personnel (or measures that fulfill the minimal standard of springing into action at his capture - we're not even talking about being effective) on the bridge or any other part of the ship; no other measures to prevent his capture (yes, up to and including suicide pills).
As said - Picard was either incompetent or ridiculously naive; most definitely culpable.
No one knew that the Borg wanted Picard, until they met up with the Borg ship. Infact they were surprised about the sudden shift in the Borg's intent.

So the whole idea of adding extra security to the bridge was not even a consideration.

Assimilation was not even know about at that point either.

and

After that it was learned that by being assimilated your knowledge is now a part of the Borg.
[...]
They didn't know about assimilation only that the Borg wanted Picard. They didn't even know why they wanted him.
Picard knew the borg wanted him - personally - some time before he was abducted.
Since the time he knew, minimal competency required him to take measures to counter this AKA additional security, suicide pill, etc.

And Picard knew he had vital information that must not fall into the hands of the borg.
Picard also knew all other interstellar powers had means of extracting information from an unwilling subject - we even saw some of the cardassian, romulan and klingon technology used for this purpose (it is a LOT better than merely interrogation or torture).
Since the borg were far more advanced than the other powers the federation dealt with, it stands to reason it will have far better ways for extracting information (as it turns out, it does have such means - assimilation).
Minimal competency required Picard to consider the worst case scenario - that the borg do have the means to extract information from him - and implement countermeasures - especially when he had at his disposal several easy to implement countermeasures.

A Klingon and an android seemed security enough.
Thinking a klingon and an android focused on other tasks are 'security enough' against intruders invulnerable to phaser fire and far stronger/faster than a standard soldier is yet another instance highlighting Picard's incompetence.

And if you want to blame Picard for not doing more, neither did Starfleet at Wolf 359. The Saratoga only had the (presumably) Chief of Security on the Bridge. And that was after the Enterprise was able to tell the fleet, "By the way, since the Borg captured Picard they know everything he does and another Captain or an Admiral would really help them out a lot too. Good luck in the battle." Starfleet didn't even think to tell the ships warping to Wolf 359 to load as many civilians as possible on shuttles and leave them behind.
For all we knew, all command level officers on the federation fleet received suicide pills; in any case, after Picard, assimilating other starfleet command officers would yield diminishing returns - Picard gave the borg everything they wanted already.

The Borg also mention death as being irrelevant. Could that mean they could still have taken the knowledge from Picard even after a "suicide pill"? Or would you suggest, that once the Borg beamed onto the bridge, Worf should have vaporized the Captain thereby preventing any possible way for the Borg to capture him and take his knowledge?
Really? Now the borg can assimilate (or extract information) from dead persons - something they were never even close to being shown doing? Utterly unsupported speculation.

And Worf/other bridge personnel killing Picard - when it became obvious they can't prevent Picard's capture - would have saved the lives of thousands. As it was, only a highly improbable fluke saved earth/the federation/trillions, seeing how the borg knew by heart everything the federation threw against it, and countered it accordingly. Worf/the rest were willing to pay a VERY HIGH PRICE in order not to kill Picard.

Could more have been done? Yes. Ram the Borg ship. Initiate a Warp Core Breech. Blow up the damn ship. To keep their hands off Picard and do as much damage as possible. Except no one knew why they wanted him, or about assimilation or what it means to be assimilated.
Ramming the borg ship/initiating warp core breach - and causing more than a moderately-sized crated on the borg cube - would be far harder than setting a course/engage or initiating self-destruct.
In other words, it would have required brilliant planing/genius. One can't fault Picard for not coming up with such.

But Picard failed to even rise to the standards of minimal competency - to take the most basic, straight-forward measures required by the situation. And that IS IMPUTABLE to Picard.

Capturing the Captain to them, at that time, meant no more than if the Romulans had captured him. They would get information, but it would be days or weeks before they could use it.
[...]So where are they being naive?
Treating the borg as if they were merely romulans - when Picard&co knew the difference in abilities - is proof of incompetence/naivete.

BTW, even the romulans gaining Picard's knowledge would translate into a major disadvantage for the federation - AKA a significantly increased probability of thousands of federation citizens dead, colonies massacred, etc. So yes, even in the case of romulans, Picard should take all necessary measures in order not to be captured alive.

And if they couldn't get Picard, Riker would do nicely, or Shelby, or Worf or Geordi or Data or any member of Engineering. That would have given them what they needed to do what they did at Wolf 359.
The protection measures regarding the bridge/Picard should have been implemented in all the sensitive areas of the ship/all command personnel, of course.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; March 31 2013 at 10:21 AM.
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Old March 31 2013, 10:08 AM   #63
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Sadara wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post

It actually showed how much more powerful the Borg are than the Federation. Picard's orders were to investigate and keep the Borg busy while a fleet was being prepared to properly fight the Borg. Picard went in knowing it could well be a suicide mission or at best, a game of hide and seek, to keep the Borg occupied.
Yes, Picard knew from the start that the borg's military technology is far better than the federation's and that the borg massively outgun his ship.

He also knew that drones can easily teleport through federation shields and are, individually, more than a match for his men.
And he found out that the borg wanted him - personally.

Yet - there were no additional security personnel (or measures that fulfill the minimal standard of springing into action at his capture - we're not even talking about being effective) on the bridge or any other part of the ship; no other measures to prevent his capture (yes, up to and including suicide pills).
As said - Picard was either incompetent or ridiculously naive; most definitely culpable.
Interesting idea about suicide pills, but that does highlight an important aspect of TBOBW. The Borg should not have been allowed to get their hands on Picard, though I wonder if the Borg would have just picked someone else fairly high up the ladder? In any event, Picard's capture compromised the security of the entire Federation. I'm sure the Vulcans were significantly unimpressed by the lack of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" actions there.
The borg's assimilation gives it a huge advantage over anyone that doesn't have equivalent means of extracting information from captured opponents.
One captured commander and the borg knows everything, ranging from essential strategic and technological data to quirks of field captains.
Even if one can match the borg ship-for-ship and gun-for-gun (and, as we know, the federation is not even close to being able to do that), this tremendous intelligence advantage should give the borg victory every time.

This means that any and all measures to nullify this advantage of the borg should be routinely taken - up to and including suicide pills for all command level personnel.
And if said personnel is not willing to give their lives in order to safeguard the federation (preferring instead assimilation), then they are not fit to be on a starfleet ship's command deck.
Indeed, starfleet personnel is expected to give their lives for far less - in order to save a single ship, or a single colony against the attacking romulans/whatever.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; March 31 2013 at 10:22 AM.
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Old March 31 2013, 10:12 AM   #64
Infern0
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

The problem I had with it was they were trying to hard with the whole "I'm not picard" thing from sisko.

You know even in that ghastly Q episode he bellows out "I'm not Picard" and looks like he has tears in his eyes.

It was really overdone, we get it, Sisko is very different, just let it be.
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Old March 31 2013, 10:31 AM   #65
R. Star
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

DS9's first season really did overcompensate for itself in a lot of ways. They were trying to establish their own setting and story that differentiated themselves from TNG, yet at the same time brought in every freaking TNG extra they could get their hands on for guest appearances.
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Old March 31 2013, 11:27 AM   #66
Dream
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

All modern Trek shows needed until the third or fourth season to get "good" or at least find its identity. DS9 become great when Sisko shaved his head and grew the goatee.
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Old March 31 2013, 04:07 PM   #67
Melakon
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
. . .suicide pills. . .
. . .suicide pills. . .
. . .This means that any and all measures to nullify this advantage of the borg should be routinely taken - up to and including suicide pills for all command level personnel. . .
Suicide pills would have been useless in this situation though. A Borg materialized right next to Picard and immediately incapcitated him, there was no time to take one. And with no pockets in the uniforms, I don't know where he could have kept it. His boot heel maybe.

He definitely should have had one for the commando mission in "Chain of Command."

If nothing else, the communicator badges should have been equipped to self-detonate (perhaps even remotely) for such scenarios.
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Old March 31 2013, 04:35 PM   #68
indolover
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
Common sense according to whom? Your mighty opinion?
You need to look up the definition of "common sense".

I simply don't think people should be blamed or maligned for things they didn't do. Unlike you seemingly, I see both sides on an issue. If that's how you resolve conflicts in your real life by being one-sided, well heaven help you and all people like you.
It is easy to bee both sides of any issue when you're doing butt-hurt ivory tower philosophying. If you think you're special for doing this you're kidding yourself.

What you are obviously unable to understand is that, when your loved ones are the ones doing the dying, ivory tower philosophying is just a bad joke.
What philosophising? I never mentioned that. I'm simply citing my opinion (which seemingly to you is offensive) that neither party is "to blame". Yet you without much reasoning or logic are citing Picard as the sole culpable party. What you do in your own life is your own business, but I feel sorry for those close to you if you're so arbitrary or God-like in your reasoning.

As for Picard getting captured, well this depends if all reasonable action could be taken to prevent it. This is general military protocol.

Lastly, common sense does not exist. Get with it, pops.
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Old March 31 2013, 04:42 PM   #69
indolover
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Yes, Picard knew from the start that the borg's military technology is far better than the federation's and that the borg massively outgun his ship.

He also knew that drones can easily teleport through federation shields and are, individually, more than a match for his men.
And he found out that the borg wanted him - personally.

Yet - there were no additional security personnel (or measures that fulfill the minimal standard of springing into action at his capture - we're not even talking about being effective) on the bridge or any other part of the ship; no other measures to prevent his capture (yes, up to and including suicide pills).
As said - Picard was either incompetent or ridiculously naive; most definitely culpable.
Interesting idea about suicide pills, but that does highlight an important aspect of TBOBW. The Borg should not have been allowed to get their hands on Picard, though I wonder if the Borg would have just picked someone else fairly high up the ladder? In any event, Picard's capture compromised the security of the entire Federation. I'm sure the Vulcans were significantly unimpressed by the lack of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" actions there.
The borg's assimilation gives it a huge advantage over anyone that doesn't have equivalent means of extracting information from captured opponents.
One captured commander and the borg knows everything, ranging from essential strategic and technological data to quirks of field captains.
Even if one can match the borg ship-for-ship and gun-for-gun (and, as we know, the federation is not even close to being able to do that), this tremendous intelligence advantage should give the borg victory every time.

This means that any and all measures to nullify this advantage of the borg should be routinely taken - up to and including suicide pills for all command level personnel.
And if said personnel is not willing to give their lives in order to safeguard the federation (preferring instead assimilation), then they are not fit to be on a starfleet ship's command deck.
Indeed, starfleet personnel is expected to give their lives for far less - in order to save a single ship, or a single colony against the attacking romulans/whatever.
Perchance, do you still see Sisko as a hero despite tricking Romulans into a war, which certainly killed more persons than at Wolf 359? Or is your answer "people are human"?

Seems to me that you like to project your opinions. A tip for you is that nobody needs to care what you think.
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Old March 31 2013, 04:58 PM   #70
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

indolover wrote: View Post
What philosophising? I never mentioned that. I'm simply citing my opinion (which seemingly to you is offensive) that neither party is "to blame".
Mentioned? You did your butt-hurt psilosophising non-stop throughout this thread (came up with quite a few baseless dictums in the process, too).
And you generously added ad personams for everyone who doesn't think your superficial opinion is truth, fact and the word of god (which I do find offensive).
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Old March 31 2013, 05:01 PM   #71
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Melakon wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
. . .suicide pills. . .
. . .This means that any and all measures to nullify this advantage of the borg should be routinely taken - up to and including suicide pills for all command level personnel. . .
Suicide pills would have been useless in this situation though. A Borg materialized right next to Picard and immediately incapcitated him, there was no time to take one. And with no pockets in the uniforms, I don't know where he could have kept it. His boot heel maybe.

He definitely should have had one for the commando mission in "Chain of Command."

If nothing else, the communicator badges should have been equipped to self-detonate (perhaps even remotely) for such scenarios.
I'm thinking of self-termination pills that can't be stopped by someone merely preventing you from reaching to your pocket - spy-fiction features numerous examples (such as a tooth containing an undetectable substance, etc).
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Old March 31 2013, 05:02 PM   #72
indolover
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
What philosophising? I never mentioned that. I'm simply citing my opinion (which seemingly to you is offensive) that neither party is "to blame".
Mentioned? You do your butt-hurt psilosophising non-stop in this thread. And generously added ad personams for everyone who doesn't think your superficial opinion is truth, fact or whatever (which I do find offensive).
lol.. I don't really care either way. Also, facts don't exist, get with it. You are all aggressively putting forward your beliefs, hence my comments.
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Old April 1 2013, 04:31 AM   #73
Vanyel
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

A question for you Edit_XYZ, the suicide pills you believe all command personnel should have when in battle with the Borg, when should they use them? When the Borg take down the shields? When the Borg catch up with the ship running at maximum warp? Should Starfleet even try to mount a defense?

Look at it, Starfleet can't stop the Borg which means the Borg are going to be able to take who or what they want from any ship, so why try?

The command crew is always going to be vulnerable to abduction by the Borg and since the Borg can adapt to phasers quickly, and there are far more Borg on a Cube than personnel on any Starfleet ship, so they can just keep sending Borg until they capture someone. Or should Starfleet send ships with Cadets to fight so no codes, advanced battle tactics, expieience, or anything else can be learned?
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Old April 1 2013, 05:00 AM   #74
Dream
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

The suicide pill idea is moronic and destroys moral.

Starfleet officers are already expected to give their lives to protect the Federation. Better to let them die fighting. Let the ship ram the Borg cute or activate auto destruct sequence. Starfleet officers are known for their last minute saves.
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Old April 1 2013, 04:18 PM   #75
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
A question for you Edit_XYZ, the suicide pills you believe all command personnel should have when in battle with the Borg, when should they use them?
When they're about to get assimilated - the tubules entering their neck, about to be sedated on a borg ship, etc.

Look at it, Starfleet can't stop the Borg which means the Borg are going to be able to take who or what they want from any ship, so why try?
Defeatism? That's it?*
It's unknown whether starfleet can stop the borg or not in a given situation.
But in ANY situation, starfleet will be in a far better position if its command personnel dies rather than being assimilated.

*Of course, you can't convincingly argue that Picard displayed anything approaching competence with regard to his kidnapping by the borg - without resorting to logical fallacies, that is.
Still, is this fatalistic ~'starfleet'll lose in any case' mindset the only argument you could come up with?

Dream wrote: View Post
Starfleet officers are already expected to give their lives to protect the Federation. Better to let them die fighting.
Except they won't die, but get themselves assimilated - with disastrous results for the federation (starfleet officers are known for that, too).

The suicide pill idea is moronic and destroys moral.
If that's sufficient to destroy morale, then there's not much morale to be destroyed in the first place.

And merely not sitting well with your cushy moral sensibilities doesn't not make an idea 'moronic'.
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