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Old March 30 2013, 11:45 AM   #196
Takeru
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

And wasn't Crusher in the TNG pilot buying some really ugly fabric, telling someone to send her the bill? I don't remember the exact lines but she obviously intended to pay.
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Old March 30 2013, 12:05 PM   #197
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
But Kirk's statement came just after the group witnessed a woman using coins (i.e. physical currency) to purchase a newspaper from a vending machine.
Suppose they'd gone back to 2086 instead and found that no physical currency was in use. They'd still need to get some money, wouldn't they? That Kirk is reminded of that fact by seeing the use of physical currency doesn't lend itself to the interpretation you're presenting.

And Picard dialog there is the sole reference to there being no money in the future.
No, Jake Sisko and Nog have at least one extensive conversation about it. Noonien Soong speaks derisively about the past: "People got sick, they needed money." Is he talking about physical currency there? In the context, it makes about as much sense to interpret it that way as it would to suggest that Soong is saying people don't vomit in the 24th century.

In the double episode Reunification, a woman solicited a gratuity from Riker, Riker doesn't respond with "Sorry dear, money doesn't exist in the 24th century." Instead he said that he doesn't carry money, indicating that Riker associates "money" with something you carry. Something physical.

In 'Tribbles, Uhura went to the K7 station to do some shopping, and at one point offered to purchace a tribble, asking how much one cost. Now wait, Uhura wasn't carrying a purse and her uniform possessed no pockets, where was her currency? She was going to be paying yes, but not with physical "money."
Yeah, like I said, irretrievably self-contradictory.
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Old March 30 2013, 12:54 PM   #198
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Even in the Harry Potter universe the wizards use money, gold, silver and bronze coins.
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Old March 30 2013, 02:43 PM   #199
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Women not being allowed to be Starfleet captains (I detest Turnabout Intruder). Granted, Roddenberry originally wanted a female XO, but that was turned down by the network execs as too radical.
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Old March 30 2013, 02:48 PM   #200
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

maneth wrote: View Post
Women not being allowed to be Starfleet captains (I detest Turnabout Intruder). Granted, Roddenberry originally wanted a female XO, but that was turned down by the network execs as too radical.
I always took Lester's ramblings as that of someone who was plain crazy. But then I've always like Turnabout Intruder.
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Old March 30 2013, 03:27 PM   #201
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
Women not being allowed to be Starfleet captains (I detest Turnabout Intruder). Granted, Roddenberry originally wanted a female XO, but that was turned down by the network execs as too radical.
I always took Lester's ramblings as that of someone who was plain crazy.
Maybe that has something to do with the fact that she murdered her fellow scientists to set up a situation where she could still her ex-boyfriend's body and her tendency to rant like a loon
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Old March 30 2013, 04:40 PM   #202
ROBE
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

I always wanted to see a no nonsense and competent female captain in miniskirt.
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Old March 30 2013, 04:49 PM   #203
Nerys Myk
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
... with Marcus in black lingere attests to.
Looked like regular blue underwear to me. A bra and panties.
Women's underwear in general is referred to as lingerie.

Lingere on the other hand (in case mos6507 didn't know) means "licking."

Freudian slip much?
I thought it was the fancy stuff. Silk, lace and frills.


maneth wrote: View Post
Women not being allowed to be Starfleet captains (I detest Turnabout Intruder). Granted, Roddenberry originally wanted a female XO, but that was turned down by the network execs as too radical.
Nah, they objected to Roddenberry casting his mistress in the part. If he had recast rather than eliminating the character, there would have been a female XO in the show.
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Old March 30 2013, 05:03 PM   #204
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

yousirname wrote: View Post
Suppose they'd gone back to 2086 instead and found that no physical currency was in use. They'd still need to get some money, wouldn't they?
The sequence of events would have been more difficult for Kirk, but the result would have been the same. Kirk would have first had to (somehow) have established a bank account. Sold the glasses. Instead of receiving cash, the value would have gone into the account. Which the officers would have pulled from.

I seriously doubt that there will be vending machines for newspapers in 2086, but perhaps Kirk and crew would witness someone purchasing a soda from a vending machine with their phone (or some other method). Reminding them that they had no access to their own accounts in the future.

And Picard dialog there is the sole reference to there being no money in the future.
No, Jake Sisko and Nog have at least one extensive conversation about it.
In the scene you're referring to, Nog specifically said Humanity gave up currency. Interestingly, Nog didn't say the Federation as a whole had. Jake at no point said there was no money, only that he didn't need it, which was false.

Now only a few episodes before, Jake personally engaged in a business transaction that resulted in Jake acquiring ... currency (GPL).

Noonien Soong speaks derisively about the past: "People got sick, they needed money."
Given that people in the 23rd/24th centuries still get sick, doesn't it automatically follow that they also still "need money?"

Is he talking about physical currency there?
It is true that people in the past had physical currency.

Yeah, like I said, irretrievably self-contradictory.
Pretty consistent really, there are dozens and dozens of pieces of dialog about buying, selling, owning inside of the Federation. There is only one single line, in one movie, where one character overtly states money doesn't exist.

Kirk: "I'm authorized to pay an equitable price."


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Old March 30 2013, 05:08 PM   #205
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
Women not being allowed to be Starfleet captains (I detest Turnabout Intruder). Granted, Roddenberry originally wanted a female XO, but that was turned down by the network execs as too radical.
I always took Lester's ramblings as that of someone who was plain crazy.
That's a logical way to rationalize it, but Roddenberry did allegedly state that it is meant to mean women aren't starship captains. Of course, if that's true, it's been rightfully ignored since Enterprise showed us female captains predating TOS.
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Old March 30 2013, 05:39 PM   #206
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The sequence of events would have been more difficult for Kirk, but the result would have been the same.
You're not hearing me. You offer an interpretation of Kirk's words such that he's referring to physical currency only. My point is that his words make no sense if interpreted in that way. They need to get some money, be it physical or otherwise. If physical currency were obsolete in 1986, Kirk and company would still need to get some money, wouldn't they? So it makes no sense for Kirk to be referring to physical currency. His statement is a non-sequitur. Whereas if he's referring to money in general, his statement makes perfect sense.

In the scene you're referring to, Nog specifically said Humanity gave up currency. Interestingly, Nog didn't say the Federation as a whole had. Jake at no point said there was no money, only that he didn't need it, which was false.
"It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement."

If "currency" refers solely to physical money, then "currency-based economics" isn't a thing. The phrase doesn't mean anything. Nor does the adoption of 'a philosophy of self-enhancement' suggest itself as standing in contrast to the use of physical currency. Again, your interpretation renders the statement meaningless.

Now only a few episodes before, Jake personally engaged in a business transaction that resulted in Jake acquiring ... currency (GPL).
And he also 'sells' his first article, and receives no payment. Again, irretrievably self-contradictory.

Given that people in the 23rd/24th centuries still get sick, doesn't it automatically follow that they also still "need money?"
No. If I tell you that the sky is green and that two and two make four, given that the sky is not green, does it follow that two and two don't make four? Wesley Crusher remarks on the common cold as 'something humans used to get' so we can assume without any real reaching that that's the order of 'sickness' Soong is referring to. But certainly he's not referring to physical currency only.

It is true that people in the past had physical currency.
Yes, it's true. But it makes absolutely no sense to interpret Soong's words in that way. Yet again your interpretation bids us regard the characters as speaking nonsense.

Pretty consistent really, there are dozens and dozens of pieces of dialog about buying, selling, owning inside of the Federation. There is only one single line, in one movie, where one character overtly states money doesn't exist.
No, there are also numerous lines which only make sense if interpreted in that way. To interpret them your way requires us to believe characters are saying things for no reason or saying things which are meaningless ("currency-based economics").

Ronald D. Moore wrote:
By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that.
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Old March 30 2013, 06:27 PM   #207
Nerys Myk
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
Women not being allowed to be Starfleet captains (I detest Turnabout Intruder). Granted, Roddenberry originally wanted a female XO, but that was turned down by the network execs as too radical.
I always took Lester's ramblings as that of someone who was plain crazy.
That's a logical way to rationalize it, but Roddenberry did allegedly state that it is meant to mean women aren't starship captains. Of course, if that's true, it's been rightfully ignored since Enterprise showed us female captains predating TOS.
Did Roddenberry have much to do with Star Trek by the time "Turnabout Intruder" was made?
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Old March 30 2013, 06:29 PM   #208
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

He wrote the episode's story outline, so in the case of that episode, yes.
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Old March 30 2013, 06:30 PM   #209
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I always took Lester's ramblings as that of someone who was plain crazy.
That's a logical way to rationalize it, but Roddenberry did allegedly state that it is meant to mean women aren't starship captains. Of course, if that's true, it's been rightfully ignored since Enterprise showed us female captains predating TOS.
Did Roddenberry have much to do with Star Trek by the time "Turnabout Intruder" was made?
The Wiki says the story is by Gene Roddenberry...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnabout_Intruder

But he didn't write the final draft of the script, so we really don't know where the no female captains thing came from.
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Old March 30 2013, 06:34 PM   #210
Nerys Myk
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Yep, that line could be Singers or someone else involved with writing the script.
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