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 The Trek BBS Cause and Effect

 The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

March 28 2013, 01:09 AM   #76
Tiberius
Commodore

Re: Cause and Effect

 JirinPanthosa wrote: Of course, if the ship is one kilometer long and the breach would envelop the ship in six hours, the breach should have been noticeably moving.
The Enterprise D is about 640 meters long, if I recall.
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March 28 2013, 04:16 AM   #77
Trekker4747

Location: Kansas City
Re: Cause and Effect

Tiberius wrote:
 Photoman15 wrote: Second, in space the ship weighs nothing.
I call troll.

We went over this with you in August last year.

It's amazing how often people confuse the "things weigh nothing in space" thing. Sure, in space and not in a gravitational body I would "weigh nothing" and a 2 year old could, theoretically, pick me up. Say if we were on a very light object with no meaningful gravity (like an asteroid.) But weight and mass are different things.

Just because things don't weigh anything (or much) in space doesn't mean they're easy to move. Think of it this way, if things "weigh nothing in space" that means that when Neil Armstrong went to the moon he could've picked it up and chucked it out of orbit like he was Superman. The notion of being destroyed by an asteroid would be meaningless because all we would need to do it just send something small to the asteroid to push it out of the way. I mean, it weighs nothing, right? Nope. It doesn't work that way.

Mass and weight are not the same thing.

The Enterprise is still a huge chunk of metal that on earth would weigh millions of tons. You're not going to move it out of the way in a quick manner with few second long blast of a small (comparatively) room full of air. The air in that space to move the Enterprise would have to weigh more than the ship, a LOT more, to move it so quickly. In "reality" that blast of air would just make the ship infinitesimally faster in its movement in that direction.

If things "weighing nothing" in space was enough to make them easy to move we would have figured out the whole "going the speed of light" thing and "sending ships to other planets" thing a long-assed time ago. But, in reality, the problem is to go a speed you have to move mass, to move mass you need fuel, fuel weighs something (adds mass) so it means you need more fuel to move it ad infinitum.
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Out of hope.

March 28 2013, 04:43 AM   #78
JirinPanthosa
Commodore

Re: Cause and Effect

Tiberius wrote:
 JirinPanthosa wrote: Of course, if the ship is one kilometer long and the breach would envelop the ship in six hours, the breach should have been noticeably moving.
The Enterprise D is about 640 meters long, if I recall.
640 meters / 6 hours = 2.96 cm/second. Quite noticeable to the human eye.

As for the solution to Cause and Effect, I might explain that as, relative distances are distorted in the show. If one ship is traveling at different multiples of the speed of light they can still see each other slowly getting closer on the viewscreen. In Cause and Effect they didn't really need that much thrust to move clear of the ship. Let's say the ship needed to move 100m in 5s. The ship then needed to accelerate at 8 m/s^2.

March 28 2013, 05:08 AM   #79
Pavonis
Commodore

Re: Cause and Effect

 JirinPanthosa wrote: 640 meters / 6 hours = 2.96 cm/second. Quite noticeable to the human eye.
That's only if the rate of expansion is constant, and it's probably not.

March 29 2013, 04:56 PM   #80
FFunctionalData
Lieutenant Commander

Re: Cause and Effect

Mojochi wrote:
Trekker4747 wrote:
 FFunctionalData wrote: Loved this ep. I just do not understand how the doctor was able to hear voices. It would have made more sense if it happened to Troi.
The voices were a physical manifestation -they were actually there, not in Crusher's head. Geordi says sensors had picked something up and other crewmen reported a problem too. It was initially assumed to be a problem in the Com System. Crusher's room just happened to be in the right place and time for her to hear -and later record- the voices.
Geordi also has an effect he calls blurry after images in his visor. It's what initially made him dizzy. It's made out that they are both some kind of echos from previous loops

time travel ep hurt my head.

thank you for clearing it up though.

 March 29 2013, 08:25 PM #81 Worf2DS9 Writer     Location: Canada, eh Re: Cause and Effect This is one of my favourite episodes of TNG and definitely a highlight of the 5th season for me. It's also a great showcase for what's probably my favourite Worf makeup in the series. __________________ Shorts in: SNW5 | SNW7 | SNW9 + Star Trek: Corps of Engineers - "The Light" + Full Throttle Space Tales #3: Space Grunts - "Rush"
March 29 2013, 08:29 PM   #82
Silvercrest

Location: Lost in Moria (Arlington, WA, USA)
Re: Cause and Effect

 Trekker4747 wrote: It's amazing how often people confuse the "things weigh nothing in space" thing. Sure, in space and not in a gravitational body I would "weigh nothing" and a 2 year old could, theoretically, pick me up. Say if we were on a very light object with no meaningful gravity (like an asteroid.) But weight and mass are different things.
If you want to puncture that misconception,just remind them that the Earth is in space, too. Does it weigh nothing?

 March 29 2013, 08:55 PM #83 Trekker4747 Fleet Admiral     Location: Kansas City Re: Cause and Effect It's like saying that Neil Armstrong could've picked up the moon and tossed it out of orbit if he wanted to. I mean, it "weighs nothing", right? __________________ Out of hope.
 March 29 2013, 10:07 PM #84 Sam_I_Am Captain     Location: Paris XVII, France Re: Cause and Effect This is also one of my favourite episodes. It has some great moments and a great opener. __________________ "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." ~ George H.W. Bush
March 29 2013, 11:26 PM   #85
Mr. Laser Beam

Location: The visitor's bullpen
Re: Cause and Effect

Tiberius wrote:
 Timo wrote: ...for most of the time the E-D is undergoing a cycle, the Bozeman is leisurely cruising in the 23rd century and not repeating anything. The Bozeman only participates in the cycle after arriving in the 24th century!
How do you know?
Because the collision between the two ships is the only thing that causes the loop. We know this from the final scene - the Bozeman comes through, does NOT hit the Enterprise, and thus the cycle is broken.
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It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

March 30 2013, 11:35 AM   #86
T'Girl

Re: Cause and Effect

 JirinPanthosa wrote: Of course, if the ship is one kilometer long and the breach would envelop the ship in six hours, the breach should have been noticeably moving.
If it were moving at a steady rate of speed, for the explosive force to reach the bow in six hours, the "cloud" should have been expanding at just under 20 millimetres a second (their prospective) or about 1.2 metres per minute. they were in engineering for a couple of minutes.

But that assumes a steady expansion. You need to take into consideration that there was (at that time) a relatively small opening into the warp core. The main explosion wouldn't occur until the body of the warp core housing was torn apart. What we (and they) were likely seeing was a initial pinhole venting plasma.

The Enterprise D is 642 metres long.
The warp core is approximately two-thirds back from the bow.
Or approximately 427,572 millimetres.
There are 21,600 seconds in 6 hours.
19.795 millimetres per second expansion.

 Photoman15 wrote: Second, in space the ship weighs nothing.
You are completely correct. While a ship in space has mass, a ship in space has no weight.

Again, you are correct.

 Trekker4747 wrote: It's like saying that Neil Armstrong could've picked up the moon and tossed it out of orbit if he wanted to. I mean, it "weighs nothing", right?
It's the Moon's mass being attracted (mutual attraction) to the Earth's mass that holds it in orbit. The late Neil Armstrong (despite his last name) would lack the strength to move that much mass.

Last edited by T'Girl; March 30 2013 at 12:15 PM.

June 24 2013, 04:04 AM   #87
Gaith

Location: Washington, DC
Re: Cause and Effect

 Shazam! wrote: Like putting too much air in a balloon!
Great reference, great ep.

Though I did wonder why when, at the end, Worf identified the other ship as the Bozeman, the D's computer didn't pipe up with an alert saying "holy shit, guys, we've been missing that ship for 90 years!". I mean, I'm assuming Word didn't read the hull markings without the computer's help. And I'm kinda surprised Data doesn't keep a mental list of all mysteriously missing UFP ships, either.

Don't mind the nitpicks, though.

June 24 2013, 04:16 AM   #88
Tosk

Location: On the run.
Re: Cause and Effect

 Gaith wrote: Though I did wonder why when, at the end, Worf identified the other ship as the Bozeman, the D's computer didn't pipe up with an alert saying "holy shit, guys, we've been missing that ship for 90 years!".
TV dramatics. Just like in Yesterday's Enterprise, when Tasha reads off the ID on the other ship. "NCC 1701-C, U.S.S. ...Enterprise." But Picard doesn't act stunned until she gets to the Enterprise part.

June 24 2013, 04:48 AM   #89
jimbotron
Fleet Captain

Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Cause and Effect

 Tosk wrote: TV dramatics. Just like in Yesterday's Enterprise, when Tasha reads off the ID on the other ship. "NCC 1701-C, U.S.S. ...Enterprise." But Picard doesn't act stunned until she gets to the Enterprise part.
Actually his stunned reaction (Riker's too) is after Yar reads off "1701-C". He turns to her, and then after she reads "Enterprise", he looks back toward the viewscreen.

 June 24 2013, 04:57 AM #90 Tosk Rear Admiral     Location: On the run. Re: Cause and Effect You're right, sorry...it's the music that acts like "Enterprise" is the real kicker. It messed with my memory of the characters reacting.

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