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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 29 2013, 06:26 PM   #91
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
If people think the Prophets were a deus ex machina plot device, that just means they didn't know what a "deus ex machina" really is, and didn't see the significance of Sisko's call for help.
I do know that if Voyager had done something similar and had Kes beg the Female Caretaker to save them from a Borg Armada, or something like that, no one would see it as anything but Deus Ex Machina.

If there were any real deus ex machina plot saviors in Trek, it's Voyager's main deflector dish, which was always able to solve problems no matter what. Now that's a god-like machine! It's also one of the primary problems I had with the series.
It's no different than how the TOS Enterprise could go anywhere at any speed and always had the right equipment or the right materials to make whatever they needed.
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Old March 29 2013, 06:28 PM   #92
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

secretreeve wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.
The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).

The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.

The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.

Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.

And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.

Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.

That is the premise of Voyager.
Did you even watch the show? Or any star trek?

If you have you should know full well size doesn't matter. If a pilot is skilled enough and a captain knows wht the frak they are doing the size of the ship doesn't matter. If anything, a smaller ship is better in combat. It's a smaller target, with smaller components making it harder to hit.
Then why did they get complaints anytime the ship and the crew did anything cool or important?
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Old March 29 2013, 07:08 PM   #93
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I do know that if Voyager had done something similar and had Kes beg the Female Caretaker to save them from a Borg Armada, or something like that, no one would see it as anything but Deus Ex Machina.
Only if Kes had no relationship with the female Caretaker. Sisko had a relationship with the Prophets that had built up over five seasons, with them always asking something from him and giving nothing but cryptic answers back to him. In the wormhole, facing the Dominion fleet, Sisko had earned the help of gods and they finally did something for him.

If Kes had a similar storyline, then the writers could've gotten away with a similar resolution.

It's no different than how the TOS Enterprise could go anywhere at any speed and always had the right equipment or the right materials to make whatever they needed.
Starships always travel at the speed of plot. That's not a plot problem, and it's not a plot resolution. That's not what I was referring to. I recall Voyager often solving the problems they faced by tinkering with the main deflector and shooting a particle-of-the-week at the anomaly-of-the-week, leading to a resolution of the story. Maybe it didn't happen as often as I recall, but my point is that the stories weren't often enough resolved by character choices, but by technological means. That's a valid way to end the story, but unfulfilling story-wise.
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Old March 29 2013, 07:20 PM   #94
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
If Kes had a similar storyline, then the writers could've gotten away with a similar resolution.
Doubtful. The audience couldn't even accept Voyager having an important relationship with anyone they encountered (the Vidiians, the Krenim, etc), let alone relationships with a God Alien.

The audience couldn't even accept that there was a single alien species that could fight off the Borg (the 8472) despite knowing that there were more powerful aliens than them for years.

Starships always travel at the speed of plot. That's not a plot problem, and it's not a plot resolution. That's not what I was referring to. I recall Voyager often solving the problems they faced by tinkering with the main deflector and shooting a particle-of-the-week at the anomaly-of-the-week, leading to a resolution of the story.
TNG did that a lot too, and no one cared. So did TOS.
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Old March 29 2013, 07:38 PM   #95
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

You sure think you know a lot about "the audience". Did you take a poll?
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Old March 29 2013, 08:12 PM   #96
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I've been observing the fandom for about 21 years now, I know the complaints well enough. Just like I know that Voyager is condemned more harshly than any other Trek show (including Enterprise) and other shows get away with the same things it's condemned for.

They have a cure for the Vidiians? They're too important.

They stopped the Krenim Timeship? They're too important.

Their possible role in the Kyrian conflict in "Living Witness"? They're too important.

Their role in the Borg/8472 conflict? They're too important.

Basically, anytime VOY did anything big and cool the audience reacted negatively and said they were having too big an impact on the DQ and its species. Nevermind that all the other Trek shows do the same damn thing and no one cared.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:27 PM   #97
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Did they do "the same damn thing", though? What kind of similar episodes from TOS, TNG, and DS9 are being compared with VOY episodes that do "the same damn thing?" It's likely there are similarities, but the differences are probably significant.

I don't think VOY gets any harsher criticism than any other Trek. It has its vocal opponents and just-as-vocal proponents. Don't develop a persecution complex over it.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:53 PM   #98
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Did they do "the same damn thing", though? What kind of similar episodes from TOS, TNG, and DS9 are being compared with VOY episodes that do "the same damn thing?"
Kirk fights off Gods, stops superbeings like V'Ger or the Whale Probe or "God" from "The Final Frontier" and no one complains.

Voyager stops the Krenim Timeship, which could've threatened the fabric of time and space, and everyone complains about how they shouldn't have been able to do it.

TNG stops the Borg Cube from conquering Earth, no one complains.

VOY destroys a freaking PROBE SHIP in "Dark Frontier" and gets nothing but complains over how they shouldn't have been able to do that.

DS9 does a big epic story about a Galactic War, and no one complains about Sisko's role being too important.

Voyager runs into the Borg/8472 war and gets nothing but complaints over how an alien species that can fight the Borg shouldn't exist, and that VOY shouldn't have played any major role in this war.

I don't think VOY gets any harsher criticism than any other Trek. It has its vocal opponents and just-as-vocal proponents. Don't develop a persecution complex over it.
Hardly anyone stands up for VOY or points out the unfair double standards, though.

Hell, other shows like Farscape did similar things (Crichton being able to stop a massive galactic war between the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and brings both empire to their knees) and no one complains there either.
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Old March 29 2013, 09:48 PM   #99
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Voyager stops the Krenim Timeship, which could've threatened the fabric of time and space, and everyone complains about how they shouldn't have been able to do it.
I've never heard any complaints like that. The only complaint I have about the "Year of Hell" two-parter was that the entire series should've been similar to those episodes.

VOY destroys a freaking PROBE SHIP in "Dark Frontier" and gets nothing but complains over how they shouldn't have been able to do that.
Never heard that complaint either.

Voyager runs into the Borg/8472 war and gets nothing but complaints over how an alien species that can fight the Borg shouldn't exist, and that VOY shouldn't have played any major role in this war.
Again, I've not heard those complaints, but I think the episodes proved that Voyager would've been better off avoiding both parties and not siding with either.

Hardly anyone stands up for VOY or points out the unfair double standards, though.

Hell, other shows like Farscape did similar things (Crichton being able to stop a massive galactic war between the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and brings both empire to their knees) and no one complains there either.
Basically, I don't think the complaints you've heard are because of the plots used, but the execution of those plots. Sometimes VOY didn't do the same plots as well as other shows did.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:03 PM   #100
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

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I've never heard any complaints like that. The only complaint I have about the "Year of Hell" two-parter was that the entire series should've been similar to those episodes.
Whoever says that is a dummy. There's no way they'd ever be able to repair the ship after that kind of beating, nor could they ever replace the lost crew (whom they couldn't survive without, for long) meaning the show would be over if they did a story like that.

The premise says they'll have "no support", which means they never get help from anyone or ever be able to barter for repairs or supplies or anything. To hold to that premise, that means "Year of Hell" would be the end.

Never heard that complaint either.
You're lucky. All I get is how showing Voyager winning against a Borg ship (ANY Borg ship) ruined them. And that includes the Probe ship in "Dark Frontier".

Again, I've not heard those complaints, but I think the episodes proved that Voyager would've been better off avoiding both parties and not siding with either.
Which is another example of the unfairness. If they do nothing then the audience would denounce them all as cowards or ineffective morons who should've done something.

Basically, I don't think the complaints you've heard are because of the plots used, but the execution of those plots. Sometimes VOY didn't do the same plots as well as other shows did.
I watched all those shows, I don't see any major problems in the execution. Except that the audience was always hoping for the entire crew to be killed off and the ship to be destroyed every single time.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:16 PM   #101
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I don't mean that "Year of Hell"-levels of damage should've been expected every episode, just that damage from the previous episode should have remained a background concern for the subsequent episode. Unfortunately, that would mean VOY couldn't be as episodic as the producers wanted, since damage on the ship model would mean the stock footage of a clean Voyager wouldn't be usable.

And no support from Starfleet doesn't mean no support from anyone. I liked the episodes when Voyager had to stop at alien space stations to negotiate for supplies; more such episodes would have been welcome.

As for the Species 8472-Borg conflict, well, what was the point of the episode? Janeway sided with the devil she knew. Why? The Borg were getting their asses handed to them, so why not let the Borg get destroyed? Why side with them against Species 8472? I just didn't see the advantage in saving the Borg from an enemy that was well on its way to eradicating them.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:31 PM   #102
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
I don't mean that "Year of Hell"-levels of damage should've been expected every episode, just that damage from the previous episode should have remained a background concern for the subsequent episode. Unfortunately, that would mean VOY couldn't be as episodic as the producers wanted, since damage on the ship model would mean the stock footage of a clean Voyager wouldn't be usable.
Like I said, no way to repair any damages done to the ship. If the audience was willing to accept that they could repair the ship, then they wouldn't have gotten made whenever they DID repair the ship's damage.

And no support from Starfleet doesn't mean no support from anyone. I liked the episodes when Voyager had to stop at alien space stations to negotiate for supplies; more such episodes would have been welcome.
The premise says "No Support", not "No Starfleet" support. To hold to that means never getting help from anyone. And it seems you're an exception to the standard, because otherwise most either dislike the episodes where they go to alien stations for help, or just don't care.

As for the Species 8472-Borg conflict, well, what was the point of the episode?
They were in Borg central, might as well tell a Borg story. And prove once and for all that the Borg were nowhere NEAR the number one Galactic Threat. They are, and always were, just one tough alien species. Not the toughest by far. Just one among many. And we finally saw another one.

Unfortunately, most of the audience was dumb enough to think that the Borg WERE the Number One Galactic Threat and didn't like their illusions being ruined.

Nevermind if TNG introduced the 8472 aliens no one would've minded.

Janeway sided with the devil she knew. Why? The Borg were getting their asses handed to them, so why not let the Borg get destroyed? Why side with them against Species 8472? I just didn't see the advantage in saving the Borg from an enemy that was well on its way to eradicating them.
As of that episode, the 8472 were out to annihilate all life in our Universe and had the power to do so. The Borg don't have the power to assimilate even one Galactic Quadrant (otherwise they'd have done so) and thus were the lesser threat. Once they were done with the Borg, the 8472 would go after everyone else.

Sure, they changed their minds later but not at the time of "Scorpion".

And this is another example of the double standard. DS9 did an episode where Sisko teamed up with the Jem'Hadar to stop the Dominion from being taken over by renegade Jem'Hadar, yet everyone liked that episode.

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Old March 29 2013, 10:33 PM   #103
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Seven's stupid catsuit needed to go. She looked so much better in a Starfleet uniform.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:48 PM   #104
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Like I said, no way to repair any damages done to the ship. If the audience was willing to accept that they could repair the ship, then they wouldn't have gotten made whenever they DID repair the ship's damage.
What? When was "no repairs ever" a premise of the show? Clearly repairs were made between episodes, as evidenced by the nearly complete destruction of the Bridge in "Deadlock". So I don't know what you're talking about, and suspect you don't either.

The premise says "No Support", not "No Starfleet" support. To hold to that means never getting help from anyone. And it seems you're an exception to the standard, because otherwise most either dislike the episodes where they go to alien stations for help, or just don't care.
Again, clearly that wasn't the premise, since the pilot episode itself had Neelix and Kes offer support, and they're definitely not Starfleet. Not to mention the other episodes where the stop at alien space stations for resupply.

They were in Borg central, might as well tell a Borg story. And prove once and for all that the Borg were nowhere NEAR the number one Galactic Threat. They are, and always were, just one tough alien species. Not the toughest by far. Just one among many. And we finally saw another one.
But the Species 8472 aliens weren't unstoppable for Janeway and her crew, so why not let the badass aliens take out the Borg, then Janeway can stop the badass aliens.


Nevermind if TNG introduced the 8472 aliens no one would've minded.
You don't know that, you're just feeling persecuted.



As of that episode, the 8472 were out to annihilate all life in our Universe and had the power to do so. The Borg don't have the power to assimilate even one Galactic Quadrant (otherwise they'd have done so) and thus were the lesser threat. Once they were done with the Borg, the 8472 would go after everyone else.
Were they out to destroy all life in our Universe, or were they just intent on killing all Borg? Until Janeway and company stumbled into the fight, did the big badass aliens even know there was more than one species in this Universe? They were the only ones in theirs, and would easily assume that the Borg was the only one species here. It didn't help, then, that the only other species 8472 encountered here also sided against them.


And this is another example of the double standard. DS9 did an episode where Sisko teamed up with the Jem'Hadar to stop the Dominion from being taken over by renegade Jem'Hadar, yet everyone liked that episode.
Ah, but in that episode, no one is blowing up planets. The scale is quite different - the characters are working together against a common enemy (same premise), but there's more character interactions and the scale of jeopardy is different. I think scale is important - jeopardize the whole Universe, and you have an epic tale on your hands that needs to be handled right. Jeopardize just your main character, though...well, that's not necessarily epic, and doesn't have to meet the same standards.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:49 PM   #105
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Neelix should have shown up with all of Kes' handmedowns.

"She liked you a lot, you really made an impression, I know that Kes would want you to have these."

This would have shown proper respect to what had come before and still shoehorned Jeri into a top 3 sizes too small for her magnificent bust.

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