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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 29 2013, 01:02 AM   #16
Mr. Adventure
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

He was pretty flippant in The Trouble with Tribbles.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:00 AM   #17
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
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The only time Kirk blatantly disobeyed authority was in Amok Time.

Unless, of course, you count his somewhat "flexible" approach to the Prime Directive . . .

Don't start with the PD BS.

Kirk did not violate the Prime Directive. Return of the Archrons and The Apple might be questionable, but the Enterprise and crew were at stake both times. No other time does he come close.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:39 AM   #18
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I think it was part of the WWII mind set. Roddenberry and others were vets and no doubt drew upon that when writing Kirk. Citizens turned soldiers with a healthy disregard for authority seems to common theme in WWII set film and television. McHale's Navy, Hogans Heroes and Kelly's Heroes come to mind. MASH, though set in the Korean War, is another one.
You don't think it might have something to do with those shows being made in the 60's?
Made in the 60's by guys who lived through the 40's.
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Old March 29 2013, 03:10 AM   #19
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I think it was part of the WWII mind set. Roddenberry and others were vets and no doubt drew upon that when writing Kirk. Citizens turned soldiers with a healthy disregard for authority seems to common theme in WWII set film and television. McHale's Navy, Hogans Heroes and Kelly's Heroes come to mind. MASH, though set in the Korean War, is another one.
You don't think it might have something to do with those shows being made in the 60's?
Made in the 60's by guys who lived through the 40's.
Using your examples this didn't seem to set in until the 60s. Shouldn't this streak have ran through 50s productions as well?
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Old March 29 2013, 04:52 AM   #20
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post

You don't think it might have something to do with those shows being made in the 60's?
Made in the 60's by guys who lived through the 40's.
Using your examples this didn't seem to set in until the 60s. Shouldn't this streak have ran through 50s productions as well?
I'm sure it did. The Maverick brothers and Sgt Bilko come to mind. And of course many of these vets wouldn't be in the position to create TV productions (rather than just write for them) until the early Sixties.
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Old March 29 2013, 09:49 AM   #21
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The only time Kirk blatantly disobeyed authority was in Amok Time.

Unless, of course, you count his somewhat "flexible" approach to the Prime Directive . . .
Talk like that will upset the whole percentage.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:29 PM   #22
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I'm sure it did. The Maverick brothers and Sgt Bilko come to mind. And of course many of these vets wouldn't be in the position to create TV productions (rather than just write for them) until the early Sixties.
Could be, I'm playing devil's advocate not necessarily saying you're wrong. I have never heard this WWII argument for this before. I have heard some of the first biker gangs were formed by vets dealing with having difficulty reintegrating back into society.

The hard part is since most people in the 60s had lived through the 40s to separate what is what.
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Old March 29 2013, 03:45 PM   #23
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I'm sure it did. The Maverick brothers and Sgt Bilko come to mind. And of course many of these vets wouldn't be in the position to create TV productions (rather than just write for them) until the early Sixties.
Could be, I'm playing devil's advocate not necessarily saying you're wrong. I have never heard this WWII argument for this before. I have heard some of the first biker gangs were formed by vets dealing with having difficulty reintegrating back into society.

The hard part is since most people in the 60s had lived through the 40s to separate what is what.
True, but I'm talking about guys of Gene's generation, who were in their 40s by the time the Sixties rolled around. The first decade of my life took place in the Sixties, but that experience is different than someone who was in their teens or twenties in the same decade. OTOH, some of the "leaders" in the counter culture were guys of Gene's generation like Timothy Leary.

I think Kirk's attitude towards bureaucrats and other authority figures comes the experience guys of Gene's generation dealing with the bureaucracy of the Armed Forces when they served. Joseph Heller's Catch-22 comes to mind.
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Old April 1 2013, 04:41 AM   #24
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

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I'm not sure the zeitgeist had that much to do with it. Youth has been rebelling against authority since before the time of Socrates.
True. Where the '60s zeitgeist intrudes most obviously is in "The Way to Eden," and Kirk is on the side of the establishment in that one. Also, he rejected the drug culture in "This Side of Paradise." He was right both times if you ask me.
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I think Kirk was in a moderate position in The Way to Eden, he was in authority, but he didn't seem to want to be oppressive. Chekov was the super rigid authority guy in attitudes. Scotty was almost but he didn't have as many lines.

And I agree, I think Kirk was right both times.
The thing is, the hippies of 2268 in 'The Way To Eden' were full of shit anyway, and would have been rejected by the real hippies of the 1960's that they were based on. Why do I say this?

Well, I say this because the hippies were rebelling against things that were really bad in the 1960's-the Vietnam War and the Cold War being the primary things (as well as the military industrial complex of the USA, and other societal ills.) The Federation and the United Earth Republic isn't anything like the USA of the 1960's, and the conflict with the Klingons and the Romulans isn't anything like the conflict with the USSR and the PRC on Earth in the 1960's, either (the Soviets never wanted to conquer anybody world-wide, just make sure that their borders were secure against invasion; Stalin for one trembled at the thought of ever picking a fight with the USA and the other NATO nations, unlike the Romulans and the Klingons.) To a hippie of the 1960's the Federation and the future Earth would be a paradise, enough for said hippie to be dismissive of Severin and his group. In fact, in the original draft of the episode (named 'Joanna') Severin and Co. can't even fend for themselves properly on Eden until Kirk shows them how to do so. Kirk being a moderate? More like Severin was full of it.
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Old April 1 2013, 01:19 PM   #25
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

I always thought hippies were about laying around, getting high and having their parents pay for it all.
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Old April 1 2013, 02:36 PM   #26
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Marsden wrote: View Post
I always thought hippies were about laying around, getting high and having their parents pay for it all.
No, that's just teenagers. Hippies are something else.
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Old April 1 2013, 05:59 PM   #27
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Re: Captain Kirk, Authority and the 1960s

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
I always thought hippies were about laying around, getting high and having their parents pay for it all.
No, that's just teenagers. Hippies are something else.
Yes, hippies also wanted free love, no obligations, communal living and rock and roll.
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