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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 29 2013, 03:54 AM   #76
teacake
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I want to know why he had brought colored sand with him in the shuttle.

It even comes in little tubes..
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Old March 29 2013, 04:20 AM   #77
Melakon
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Dream wrote: View Post
Someone needs to post a picture of Tuvok choking hologram Neelix to death.
By your command.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWlv_02fRyY
if the embed doesn't work.
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Old March 29 2013, 04:22 AM   #78
CorporalClegg
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
I want to know why he had brought colored sand with him in the shuttle.

It even comes in little tubes..
For erecting festive castles for his queen.

Duh.
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Old March 29 2013, 05:01 AM   #79
garak1
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I think the turning point at the S3/4 transition of Voyager was where the wheels started coming off the wagon.

Keeping Garrett Wang at the expense of Kes was a mistake. Garrett Wang was one of the worst actors I have ever seen, and I don't think he got along with the executive producers very well.

The claims by the executives that the character of Kes had 'run her course' were rubbish. A telepathic alien female with a life of nine years? The story almost writes itself.

In addition to that, Kes was a link to Ocampa, a reminder of the decision that stranded Voyager in the Delta Quadrant and who their sacrifice protected.

I believe the show may have been better suited towards maybe learning more about the Nacene (the Caretaker's species) later in the series. Maybe others members of his race remained in the Delta Quadrant. If this had eventuated, then Kes would have obviously played a significant part in such a story. This could have been a story arc across multiple seasons, possibly rivaling the weaker Borg stories.

The were other problems as well, the over utilisation of Seven of Nine and the focus on her body, the shift in the Janeway's character from a sensible Starfleet officer to 'Super-Kate', and the focus on three characters (Janeway, Seven, Doctor) rather than an ensemble as the show had somewhat been previously.

There were some great episodes in Seasons 4-7, and a few howlers, but the show was never quite the same as what is had been prior to the events of 'Scorpion'.

The show, in my opinion, hit it's zenith in Season 2 with the Kazon story arc and the smaller Vidiian story arc. Indeed, Voyager Season 2 had some of the best episodes of Star Trek that I have ever seen. I only wish such brilliance had been carried forward to later seasons.
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Old March 29 2013, 05:27 AM   #80
E-DUB
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I always wished that, at the start, Kathryn Janeway had been first officer and that the Captain had been killed, not the other way arund. Then her entire command would have been that of an untried captain and some of her decisions, such as taking on Chakotay as first officer, might have gone down a little harder with the rest of the crew. Later, I would have like to have seen Gilmore again.
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Old March 29 2013, 05:49 AM   #81
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Voyager had the potential for some very interesting and intense drama, unique plot arcs, great character development and change, but just utterly failed to execute. Despite all this, it's not the worst Trek series out there in my opinion... just the most disappointing. It could have been so much more.
Folks who say this don't realize how constrained the premise actually was.
You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.
The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).

The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.

The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.

Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.

And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.

Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.

That is the premise of Voyager.
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Old March 29 2013, 06:34 AM   #82
JirinPanthosa
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.

DS9 gets Behr, Biemer, Piller, Echevaria and Moore and Voyager gets...Braga and Ryan. DS9 made out like a divorced wife in Massachusetts.
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Old March 29 2013, 07:13 AM   #83
AllStarEntprise
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.

DS9 gets Behr, Biemer, Piller, Echevaria and Moore and Voyager gets...Braga and Ryan. DS9 made out like a divorced wife in Massachusetts.
VOY had Piller for the showrunner for the first two seasons and a consulting producer for the later seasons.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:49 AM   #84
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.
The guys whose bright idea to end the massive Dominion threat on the other end of the Wormhole was a literal deus ex machina? Seriously?

I suppose if DS9 had the Kazon as enemies and nothing was different about them, you'd eat it all up and think they were cool.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:54 AM   #85
teacake
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The moment 90% of the best TNG writers went to DS9.
The guys whose bright idea to end the massive Dominion threat on the other end of the Wormhole was a literal deus ex machina? Seriously?
Don't remind me, I still boggle at it.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:09 PM   #86
secretreeve
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post

Folks who say this don't realize how constrained the premise actually was.
You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.
The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).

The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.

The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.

Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.

And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.

Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.

That is the premise of Voyager.
Did you even watch the show? Or any star trek?

If you have you should know full well size doesn't matter. If a pilot is skilled enough and a captain knows wht the frak they are doing the size of the ship doesn't matter. If anything, a smaller ship is better in combat. It's a smaller target, with smaller components making it harder to hit.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:21 PM   #87
WesleysDisciple
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Uhmmmn some argue it was NOT A ex deus machina as the prophets/Wormhole aliens having powers indistinguishable even to the federation from magic, is a long established part of the setting, and them having a interest in both Bajor, and Sisko in particular, is equally well established, therefore, its not an ex deus machina.

SF debris review , why I dont always agree with him on everything, seems to be spot on, about why people clash on this. "Imagine their was a work of fiction, that is otherwise historicaly accurate, taking place in the crusades, detailing everyday fairly realistic medieval life, but then someone was forced to deal regularly with a charachter who everyone else knows to be a demon, but is implied is just an alien. Well its understandable that this alien or demon or whatever would be seen by some as an annoyance, as his mere presence intrudes on the othwise Historicaly accurate medieval conflicts that are taking place." (not good at paraphrasing I admit)

Point is what happened on DS9 wasnt a Deus ex machina in the accepted usage , people who disliked the result are largely people from my experience, who are athiests, and dislike any praise being directed at faith."

The authors didnt exactly write themselves into a corner, All they'd have hade to have done is let Rom finish 2 seconds earlier and the minefield would still be in place, it wasnt an act of desperation but of deliberate design.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:42 PM   #88
Pavonis
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The DS9 writers didn't write themselves into a corner and then kick out the wall behind them when they realized what they had done (that would be a real deus ex machina). No, they deliberately made Sisko, who had fought so hard to get to them, call on the Prophets for help, help that was granted because he had earned it.

If people think the Prophets were a deus ex machina plot device, that just means they didn't know what a "deus ex machina" really is, and didn't see the significance of Sisko's call for help.

If there were any real deus ex machina plot saviors in Trek, it's Voyager's main deflector dish, which was always able to solve problems no matter what. Now that's a god-like machine! It's also one of the primary problems I had with the series.
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Old March 29 2013, 03:10 PM   #89
Guy Gardener
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

"If you want us to treat you like Gods! Then damn well start acting like gods!"

The bible skips Jesus's life from years 6 through 30.

This is when Jesus was talking smack to his old man like Sisko did to the "Wormhole aliens" and it wasn't politic to admit that this stage in the Messiahs life existed because it wasn't exactly on message.
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Old March 29 2013, 06:14 PM   #90
WesleysDisciple
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Curious both you and SFdebris have the same idea that it would have been better if janeway had been first officer at first.

Curious where does chakotay start to seem overly submissive to janeway.

He questions her decisions at times like with the equinox.
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