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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 28 2013, 06:20 PM   #61
Kathy Kringle
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I wonder when they found out they had been conned??
They could have fixed it a little in the later seasons if they had realized how bad it was in season 1 -2. But I suppose the damage had been done lol.
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Old March 28 2013, 06:25 PM   #62
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Honestly, Voyager really started to go wrong about halfway through season one. Sure the pilot had it's flaws, but they went out of their way to establish the premise. Which was actually an exciting one, and one I really wanted to like. The concept of a divided crew at odds with themselves as much as their environment was an exciting one. Heck that Chakotay guy seemed pretty awesome just in the pilot.

What we got was something fairly different. TNG and DS9 both dedicated a number of their season 7/2 episodes to establishing the Maquis backstory for Voyager. Yet the Maquis really were only a major plot point in a handful of episodes. Heck, they had to alter reality or do holodeck episodes for the Maquis to act like they should've.

What we really got was just a TNG lite with better special effects that they apparently thought compensated for lower quality writing. Not to mention a weaker cast. Janeway was often a self parody and hugely inconsistent. Chakotay was drained of all life after Caretaker. Paris was just an utter Mary Sue. Kim was just laughably pathetic in his antics. Torres was another angry Klingon parody. The EMH really carried the show for the first few seasons but he couldn't do it all. Even then he's not THAT much different from Data. Kes had interesting potential, but by the time she started realizing it... they got rid of her. Neelix? He's just a jerk of the first order. Seven had some potential and some of it was even realized since she actually got a character arc. Still... hard to take her seriously in that catsuit however nice the Borg Spheres may have looked.

The writers in Voyager for the most part did just stick to the familiar excessive use of holodecks and time travel. I'll give credit where it's due and will say Voyager was less episodic and had more plot arcs than TNG, but you could still put a person new to the show halfway through season one, then slip in a season 3 or 4 episode, and have them fail to notice.

They really featured some weak antagonists too. The Kazon? People so dumb you wonder how they could operate spaceships. The whole oppressed slaves overthrowing their masters and taking their technology is interesting... except in execution you could substitute cliche Klingons for them in almost any episode and not even have to change the plot or lines much. The Viidians? A society so screwed up they have to harvest organs... interesting concept, but constantly attacking a heavily armed ship with only 150 people isn't an efficient way to go about that. Wouldn't it be more interesting if Janeway had to try and stop them from harvesting an interesting world or something instead of just another random alien attack of the week? The Hirogen... Klingons on steroids! Again another interesting concept, but just bleh in execution. At least they somewhat didn't contradict themselves even if their "culture" was two dimensional at best.

Overuse of the Q and the Borg both didn't do the franchise any favors. In TNG the Q were a mysterious force out to test the potential of humanity. In Voyager they were a disgruntled sitcom family with a few flashy powers. Watch an episode like Tapesty... they watch Q2 and it's just almost sad. Sure Q's antics and mischievous nature can be fun, but in support of an episode, not the whole reason for it. The Borg two were so overused and so watered down you couldn't take them seriously anymore either. Between the Borg Queen just being freaking insane and stupid, and Voyager "beating off certain annihilation" on a weekly basis, to finally just turning on GODMODE in Endgame.... remember when they used to be scary in TNG? Just another disgruntled villain of the week.

Voyager had the potential for some very interesting and intense drama, unique plot arcs, great character development and change, but just utterly failed to execute. Despite all this, it's not the worst Trek series out there in my opinion... just the most disappointing. It could have been so much more.
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Old March 28 2013, 06:39 PM   #63
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Voyager had the potential for some very interesting and intense drama, unique plot arcs, great character development and change, but just utterly failed to execute. Despite all this, it's not the worst Trek series out there in my opinion... just the most disappointing. It could have been so much more.
Folks who say this don't realize how constrained the premise actually was.
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Old March 28 2013, 06:48 PM   #64
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

It was kippered from the start. The cast, the 'editorial interference', the deliberate avoidance of episode to episode continuity, the seamless integration of the Maqis, the endless resources, the whole shebang.

To be honest (speaking as someone who watched it from start to finish) it was a miracle it was as good as it was...
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Old March 28 2013, 07:03 PM   #65
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Voyager had the potential for some very interesting and intense drama, unique plot arcs, great character development and change, but just utterly failed to execute. Despite all this, it's not the worst Trek series out there in my opinion... just the most disappointing. It could have been so much more.
Folks who say this don't realize how constrained the premise actually was.
You -can- have tension between two different groups of people without them resorting to blows. There is a balance between full fledged mutiny and acting like normal Starfleet people with different rank insignia that the show failed to realize. It's just lazy writing more than anything. They chose to stick with what's familiar.
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Old March 28 2013, 07:18 PM   #66
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Curious ideas on how neelix could have been better handled?

Uhmmn. I mean personality wise, I dont mean how he could have been "Handled" out an airlock, part of me does agree, but Thats not what Im asking.
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Old March 28 2013, 10:07 PM   #67
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Curious ideas on how neelix could have been better handled?

Uhmmn. I mean personality wise, I dont mean how he could have been "Handled" out an airlock, part of me does agree, but Thats not what Im asking.
Ethan Phillips really isn't to blame for the character. He did what he was told to in the end. Really the flaw in the character was he was a jerk. He claims knowledge of everything, then usually proceeds to screw it up. He has to force himself into every situation, regardless if it's welcome or not. His jealous and possessive streak is just absurd. To stalking Kes, getting angry whenever she talks with everyone male, getting territorial if someone wants to eat food that he didn't cook. And inflicting his values on everyone... if Tuvok really did strangle him, I wouldn't blame him. It takes a certain kind of self importance to assume just because someone else has a different set of values that it's up to you to set them straight, cheer them up, and keep at it despite their repeated polite requests to leave them alone.

It's just all too much. I'm all for complicated, flawed characters, but Neelix is just way too in your face about it. If he was scaled back, somewhat more competent, and learned a little something about tact he would've been better received I think. The writers were going for a space scoundrel type like Quark. Instead they got Wesley Crusher's annoying tendencies, crossed with Rom's denseness without either's positive traits. At least Wesley was smart and helpful most of the time and Rom had a heart of gold under it all.
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Old March 28 2013, 11:52 PM   #68
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Neelix had some good points, like that episode with the imperialistic aliens who 7 let out of stasis, in a moment of compassion, that nearly nabbed voyager, it was neelixes research that found them to not be peacable explorers like they claimed.


DAMN IT THOGUH, failing to follow up on that episode was a huge blunder...
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Old March 29 2013, 02:21 AM   #69
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Neelix had some good points, like that episode with the imperialistic aliens who 7 let out of stasis, in a moment of compassion, that nearly nabbed voyager, it was neelixes research that found them to not be peacable explorers like they claimed.


DAMN IT THOGUH, failing to follow up on that episode was a huge blunder...
I'm not a big Neelix hater because I loved the fact that he tried to make Tuvok crack a smile.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:31 AM   #70
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Neelix had some good points, like that episode with the imperialistic aliens who 7 let out of stasis, in a moment of compassion, that nearly nabbed voyager, it was neelixes research that found them to not be peacable explorers like they claimed.


DAMN IT THOGUH, failing to follow up on that episode was a huge blunder...
I'm not a big Neelix hater because I loved the fact that he tried to make Tuvok crack a smile.
To me that just seemed the height of arrogance. Instead of realizing he's on a crew with diverse cultural beliefs, he decides he's going to inflict his own beliefs on Tuvok regardless of whether he likes it or not and that there must be something wrong with Tuvok because he doesn't behave as Neelix wants. Some morale officer.
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Old March 29 2013, 02:46 AM   #71
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Neelix had some good points, like that episode with the imperialistic aliens who 7 let out of stasis, in a moment of compassion, that nearly nabbed voyager, it was neelixes research that found them to not be peacable explorers like they claimed.


DAMN IT THOGUH, failing to follow up on that episode was a huge blunder...
I'm not a big Neelix hater because I loved the fact that he tried to make Tuvok crack a smile.
To me that just seemed the height of arrogance. Instead of realizing he's on a crew with diverse cultural beliefs, he decides he's going to inflict his own beliefs on Tuvok regardless of whether he likes it or not and that there must be something wrong with Tuvok because he doesn't behave as Neelix wants. Some morale officer.
Deep down Tuvok was laughing AT him. Never with him.
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Old March 29 2013, 03:03 AM   #72
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Neelix had some good points, like that episode with the imperialistic aliens who 7 let out of stasis, in a moment of compassion, that nearly nabbed voyager, it was neelixes research that found them to not be peacable explorers like they claimed.


DAMN IT THOGUH, failing to follow up on that episode was a huge blunder...
I'm not a big Neelix hater because I loved the fact that he tried to make Tuvok crack a smile.
To me that just seemed the height of arrogance. Instead of realizing he's on a crew with diverse cultural beliefs, he decides he's going to inflict his own beliefs on Tuvok regardless of whether he likes it or not and that there must be something wrong with Tuvok because he doesn't behave as Neelix wants. Some morale officer.
I find those scenes incredibly embarrassing to watch. Neelix is being an idiot, a selfish thoughtless idiot.
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Old March 29 2013, 03:33 AM   #73
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post

I'm not a big Neelix hater because I loved the fact that he tried to make Tuvok crack a smile.
To me that just seemed the height of arrogance. Instead of realizing he's on a crew with diverse cultural beliefs, he decides he's going to inflict his own beliefs on Tuvok regardless of whether he likes it or not and that there must be something wrong with Tuvok because he doesn't behave as Neelix wants. Some morale officer.
I find those scenes incredibly embarrassing to watch. Neelix is being an idiot, a selfish thoughtless idiot.

Neelix's idea of boosting Tuvok's morale. Tuvok restraining himself from pulling off Neelix's whiskers:


Just because we're on the subject of bad stuff:
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Old March 29 2013, 03:43 AM   #74
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Neelix's idea of boosting Tuvok's morale. Tuvok restraining himself from pulling off Neelix's whiskers:
Someone needs to post a picture of Tuvok choking hologram Neelix to death.
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Old March 29 2013, 03:44 AM   #75
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Actually that Tuvok picture was from Meld. About ten seconds later Neelix was strangled in one of Voyager's most popular scenes. Alas, it was a holoNeelix.

As for Chuckles sanddrawing... yet another cliche "I'm an Indian in space" moment.
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