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Old March 24 2013, 03:57 AM   #31
Guy Gardener
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Re: Nemesis

"Please don't execute Federation citizens, it's not cool."

"GO TO YOUR ROOM!"

(That's a direct quote, right?)

Seriously, would Chakotay still have shuffled of to his quarters like a punk still if Kathryn had competently succeeded in Murdering Noah rather than fumbling the headshot like a noob?

I mean, he's a Cyon, but still: C'MON!
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Old March 24 2013, 05:50 PM   #32
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Re: Nemesis

teacake wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

teacake wrote
The more years I spend with VOY the more I want to smack Chakotay hard. Or at the very least shake him.
Why? Personally I find Chakotay a good character. In fact, he's number 2 on my favorites list.
Because he always seems asleep or at best muted in his response. He lacks passion. He just stands there, the most you get out of him is a slightly higher voice register to indicate he's all torqued up about something.

I just want to shake him and yell, "YOU'RE A FRAKKING TERRORIST!!! PUT SOME HEART INTO IT!"
Chakotay was a freedom fighter, not a terrorist.

Because he was a Maquis commander doesn't mean that he has to get oubursts of anger all the time. Maybe he is one of those people who don't have to raise their voices to get respect.

And he did punch Dalby in the face in "Learning Curve" and have an argument with Torres in "Parallax".

As for the episode itself, I think that the point with the whole episode was that little twist at the end when we learn that the Vori aren't such good guys after all. Personally, I like such stories. I remember really enjoying the move "High Crime" where the supposedly innocent guy actually was the bad guy in the story. Not to mention that in "Nemesis", we never found out if the Kradin were the good guys either

And I really like the Vori language!
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Old March 25 2013, 11:14 AM   #33
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Re: Nemesis

wolf123450 wrote: View Post
Well, when I started registration I was at S04E04, but now I'm halfway through season 4. Yet I still want to discuss episode 4.

I'm still convinced that the Kradin aren't the good guys the show claims...
It's war. Contrary to populair believe, there are no good guys in a war. Horrors are commited by both sides, and what can look like the 'good guy' can be something completely different. THAT'S the general idea behind this episode.
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Old March 25 2013, 05:58 PM   #34
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Re: Nemesis

Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

teacake wrote
Why? Personally I find Chakotay a good character. In fact, he's number 2 on my favorites list.
Because he always seems asleep or at best muted in his response. He lacks passion. He just stands there, the most you get out of him is a slightly higher voice register to indicate he's all torqued up about something.

I just want to shake him and yell, "YOU'RE A FRAKKING TERRORIST!!! PUT SOME HEART INTO IT!"
Chakotay was a freedom fighter, not a terrorist.

Because he was a Maquis commander doesn't mean that he has to get oubursts of anger all the time. Maybe he is one of those people who don't have to raise their voices to get respect.

And he did punch Dalby in the face in "Learning Curve" and have an argument with Torres in "Parallax".

As for the episode itself, I think that the point with the whole episode was that little twist at the end when we learn that the Vori aren't such good guys after all. Personally, I like such stories. I remember really enjoying the move "High Crime" where the supposedly innocent guy actually was the bad guy in the story. Not to mention that in "Nemesis", we never found out if the Kradin were the good guys either

And I really like the Vori language!
I agree the Maquis was more of a freedom fighter group than a terrorist group. Chakotay is definitely not a terrorist.

I can't see him hurting anybody who did not cause a fight first.
He's not a mean and violent person by any means.
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Old March 25 2013, 08:35 PM   #35
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Re: Nemesis

Mage wrote: View Post
wolf123450 wrote: View Post
Well, when I started registration I was at S04E04, but now I'm halfway through season 4. Yet I still want to discuss episode 4.

I'm still convinced that the Kradin aren't the good guys the show claims...
It's war. Contrary to populair believe, there are no good guys in a war. Horrors are commited by both sides, and what can look like the 'good guy' can be something completely different. THAT'S the general idea behind this episode.

there are no good guys in war? Tell that to Blacks liberated by Union soldiers, or concentration camp prisoners liberated by Allied armies. "Both sides do bad things" isn't equal to "there are no good guys in war."
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Old March 25 2013, 09:57 PM   #36
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Re: Nemesis

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post

Because he always seems asleep or at best muted in his response. He lacks passion. He just stands there, the most you get out of him is a slightly higher voice register to indicate he's all torqued up about something.

I just want to shake him and yell, "YOU'RE A FRAKKING TERRORIST!!! PUT SOME HEART INTO IT!"
Chakotay was a freedom fighter, not a terrorist.

Because he was a Maquis commander doesn't mean that he has to get oubursts of anger all the time. Maybe he is one of those people who don't have to raise their voices to get respect. But also not really what VOY was about. DS9 should have given us a more sympathetic figure than Eddington.

And he did punch Dalby in the face in "Learning Curve" and have an argument with Torres in "Parallax".

As for the episode itself, I think that the point with the whole episode was that little twist at the end when we learn that the Vori aren't such good guys after all. Personally, I like such stories. I remember really enjoying the move "High Crime" where the supposedly innocent guy actually was the bad guy in the story. Not to mention that in "Nemesis", we never found out if the Kradin were the good guys either

And I really like the Vori language!
I agree the Maquis was more of a freedom fighter group than a terrorist group. Chakotay is definitely not a terrorist.

I can't see him hurting anybody who did not cause a fight first.
He's not a mean and violent person by any means.
eh, once you start bombing weapons depots and blowing up ships as an independent group and not at the behest of your government someone is going to call you a terrorist. I am a Maquis sympathizer but they were not a peace movement.

I would have liked to have seen a Chakotay who was not a mean and violent person (which we did see) who was also driven to choices that tormented him in order to defend a cause he believed in (which we didn't see). Could have been great stuff.
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Old March 25 2013, 10:25 PM   #37
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Re: Nemesis

sonak wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
wolf123450 wrote: View Post
Well, when I started registration I was at S04E04, but now I'm halfway through season 4. Yet I still want to discuss episode 4.

I'm still convinced that the Kradin aren't the good guys the show claims...
It's war. Contrary to populair believe, there are no good guys in a war. Horrors are commited by both sides, and what can look like the 'good guy' can be something completely different. THAT'S the general idea behind this episode.

there are no good guys in war? Tell that to Blacks liberated by Union soldiers, or concentration camp prisoners liberated by Allied armies. "Both sides do bad things" isn't equal to "there are no good guys in war."
No good guys actually, maybe more evil and less evil.

General Sherman would probably have been labeled as a war criminal after scorching Georgia and South Carolina, if that had happened today.

As for the Allies, there were atrocities against the German population during the war, the meaningless destruction of Dresden for example. Not to mention the genocide committed by the Soviets in the eastern parts of Germany in 1944-45.

War brings out the worst of all people involved.

teacake wrote:
eh, once you start bombing weapons depots and blowing up ships as an independent group and not at the behest of your government someone is going to call you a terrorist. I am a Maquis sympathizer but they were not a peace movement.

I would have liked to have seen a Chakotay who was not a mean and violent person (which we did see) who was also driven to choices that tormented him in order to defend a cause he believed in (which we didn't see). Could have been great stuff.
I agree that the Maquis weren't a peace movement.

But I don't see them as terrorists either.

Al Qaeeda are terrorists, the Baader-Meinhof RAF in Germany in the 70:s were terrorists, IRA can be labeled as terrorists and if we stick to Star trek, the Ansata Movement can also be labeled as terrorists. They all attacked and murder innocent civilians.

While the Polish resistance movement Armia Krajowa (Home Army) and the French resistance movement in WWII (the original Maquis) can be labeled as freedom fighters because they attacked military targets.

There were a small Communist group in Poland during WWII called Armia Ludowa (People's Army). They can be labeled as terrorists because they attacked civilian Germans in order to provoke even more brutal retaliation from the Germans against the Polish population. by doing so, they expected that the Poles in their hatred against the occupiers should start to support the People's Army. That failed because the Home Army had the most support from the Poles.

As for Chakotay, I don' think a Chakotay tormented by sins in his past would have been a better Chakotay than the one we saw in the series.
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Old March 25 2013, 10:36 PM   #38
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Re: Nemesis

The Maquis didn't just target the Cardassian Military.

Their chief target was the opposing Cardassian farms competing for resources on the same planets.

Civilians vs civilians.

Problem is that it became a conflict orchestrated by third parties (3rd and 4th?) quite quickly, that the Cardassian Military were arming and bankrolling the Cardassian farmers under the table just like the Maquis were being funded and sourced by Starfleet howsoever discreetly.
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Old March 26 2013, 08:57 PM   #39
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Re: Nemesis

sonak wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
wolf123450 wrote: View Post
Well, when I started registration I was at S04E04, but now I'm halfway through season 4. Yet I still want to discuss episode 4.

I'm still convinced that the Kradin aren't the good guys the show claims...
It's war. Contrary to populair believe, there are no good guys in a war. Horrors are commited by both sides, and what can look like the 'good guy' can be something completely different. THAT'S the general idea behind this episode.

there are no good guys in war? Tell that to Blacks liberated by Union soldiers, or concentration camp prisoners liberated by Allied armies. "Both sides do bad things" isn't equal to "there are no good guys in war."
What Lynx said, is basicly correct. To many levels of evil in war. Those some soldiers you mention, also commited terrible acts of violence and horrors to liberate those you mentioned. War is not right or wrong, black or white, light or dark. It's everything in between that.
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Old March 26 2013, 09:01 PM   #40
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Re: Nemesis

As for the subject of terrorists....

So many resistance movements that are now called heroes and liberators were called terrorists during their actual existence. They were called so by those they resisted, and by the civilians they claimed to try and liberate. Why? Because of their methods, which are basicly the same methods that terrorists use. It's something that was touched upon in DS9 at times. Kira was a resistance fighter to the Bajorans, a terrorist to the Cardassians. Who was right and who was wrong?
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Old March 27 2013, 10:44 PM   #41
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Re: Nemesis

Mage wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post

It's war. Contrary to populair believe, there are no good guys in a war. Horrors are commited by both sides, and what can look like the 'good guy' can be something completely different. THAT'S the general idea behind this episode.

there are no good guys in war? Tell that to Blacks liberated by Union soldiers, or concentration camp prisoners liberated by Allied armies. "Both sides do bad things" isn't equal to "there are no good guys in war."
What Lynx said, is basicly correct. To many levels of evil in war. Those some soldiers you mention, also commited terrible acts of violence and horrors to liberate those you mentioned. War is not right or wrong, black or white, light or dark. It's everything in between that.

er, but that's not what I was responding to. "There ARE NO GOOD GUYS in war" is very different than saying "both sides do some bad things, and war is complex." The latter is pretty obviously true, but the former is very wrong.
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Old March 28 2013, 04:19 AM   #42
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Re: Nemesis

It also goes along with the fact that the winners write history. Whoever wins labels themselves as the good guy, bad deeds are covered up or get painted pretty. For example both sides in the Civil war saw themselves as the good guys, while both actually did some pretty atrocious things. Who is generally held to be the "good" side? Those who won.

This also reminds me of the episode "Living witness." What was seen in that episode 700 years later was a major distortion of the facts. It just goes to show that you can't trust everything you read in a history book...
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Old March 28 2013, 06:20 AM   #43
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Re: Nemesis

wolf123450 wrote: View Post

This also reminds me of the episode "Living witness." What was seen in that episode 700 years later was a major distortion of the facts. It just goes to show that you can't trust everything you read in a history book...
And often the fiction is prettier..

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