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Old March 28 2013, 02:42 AM   #31
JessDD
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

The Sheliak Corporate - If it was only THAT easy to round up all the lawyers and send them to some far off star system.
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Old March 28 2013, 02:56 AM   #32
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

JessDD wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
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Now, is it me, or does this go against the very idea behind the UFP, where interspecies co-operation is the key?
What could possibly give you the impression that this is one of the "key" ideals of the Federation?

There are logical reasons that individuals from all the member species of the Federation couldn't serve aboard the same ship. One that is brought forward frequently is they are unlikely to all breath the exact same gases, at the same pressure, or live in the same temperature and gravity range.

Trek fiction sometimes depicts Mister Spock's living quarters with the gravity system turned up, and the heat too.

For all we know, Humans couldn't live in the atmosphere on the vast majority of Starfleet's ships. 95% of all Starfleet vessels could have fully integrated crews, with a 140 species all serving together. And 5% of Starfleet vessels are reserved for the 8 or so species who breath a "Earth average" atmosphere.

Humans are among the odd ones out.

It's also possible that various Federation species could not serve together for psychological reasons. Or sociological ones. Medusians (not sure if they're a Federation species) can't serve with Humans, and Vulcans can only be in their presence wearing a special visor. Others might have no problem working with them.

Some of the Federation's specie wouldn't be able to serve aboard the Enterprise because they physically wouldn't fit in the corridors and turbolifts. Imagine an sapient species with the adults being the size of a elephant.

That was going to be my answer as well. Breathing the same gases, at the same temperature, in the same environment would be incredibly tricky. Alter the oxygen and nitrogen levels a few points either way and humans can't breathe.

Come to think of it, it's quite amazing to get more than 2 species on the same ship given the environmental requirements, even if a self-contained breathing unit was used.
There was this exchange crewman wearing some equipment to help him breath while on the Enterprise-D from the Season 2 episode "A Matter of Honor". Riker was serving on a Klingon Bird of Prey enjoying Klingon cuisine while it was still alive .


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Old March 28 2013, 03:11 AM   #33
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
In Captain Solok's case, it's understandable, as his evident racial prejudice against Humans would almost certainly preclude him serving on the same ship as them. He believes Vulcans are a superior race (which is in itself an anti-Federation and illogical view), so naturally he would want only Vulcans on his crew.
That's your own opinion speaking. If Solok truly thought Humans were an inferior species, then it is illogical for him to be associated in any kind with them (and that includes both Federation citizenship and service in Starfleet).
Melakon wrote: View Post
It's also possible ships are primarily staffed by the species indigenous to the system where that ship was constructed. With about 150 planets, there must be more major shipyards than San Francisco and Utopia Planitia.
This right here. The T'Kumbra probably was launched from Seleya Station or from some other facility in the Vulcan System.

There probably are a few ships launched from the Sol System that may have all-Human crews.

On the other hand, you have the Starship Hera that had a Human captain but a mostly Vulcan crew, so starship crews can be either multi-species or single-species, with the mix probably determined mostly by where the ship is deployed from and what personnel are available at the time, IMO.
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Old March 28 2013, 03:28 AM   #34
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
If Solok truly thought Humans were an inferior species, then it is illogical for him to be associated in any kind with them (and that includes both Federation citizenship and service in Starfleet).
As I said before, it is just as illogical - perhaps even more so - to even think in the first place that humans are inferior to Vulcans. (The concept of 'superior' and 'inferior' races are, logically, meaningless. It's emotional and illogical to believe in such things. Solok, being Vulcan, is not entitled to that.) Solok obviously believes that, so it's hardly a stretch that he compounds that supposed "illogic" by joining Starfleet.

Besides, perhaps the reason Solok did that was so he could rub it in the humans' faces, so to speak. Solok believes in the superiority of Vulcans, so he joins Starfleet in order to try and prove it.

As for the T'Kumbra: I still believe that Solok could have used his influence at Starfleet Command in order to populate his ship with an all-Vulcan crew. That way, he gets the best of both worlds: he gets to serve in Starfleet, but not alongside "filthy humans".
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Old March 28 2013, 01:43 PM   #35
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

(The concept of 'superior' and 'inferior' races are, logically, meaningless. It's emotional and illogical to believe in such things. Solok, being Vulcan, is not entitled to that.)
I don't understand this sort of PC bullshit. If species A has greater strength on the average than species B, then species A is superior in strength. If A has better memory than B, A is superior in memory. And so forth.

It can be debated till bovine rehabilitation whether a good score in, say, hearing will restore the worth of species B after it has scored dismally against A in everything else. But Solok need not be concerned with that. He can count the score of Vulcans on those points that pertain to prowess in Starfleet service and compare it against the score of humans, and reach the absolutely correct conclusion that Vulcans are superior to humans as Starfleet officers and crewmen.

That is, assuming that the scores justify that. But we are given no reason to think they would not.

Certainly Solok comes off as a bigot because the impression we get is that he believes in "overall" superiority of Vulcans, whereas as already said, that's a battleground without rules: anybody can come and say either that

a) all species are equal because the various easily observed superiorities somehow always happen to cancel each other out exactly or
b) in fact B is superior to A because the one attribute where B triumphs is more important than all the ones where A triumphs put together.

Of course, a) and b) represent true bigotry, a deliberate perverting of facts by the introduction of frivolous "weights" for the scores, but Solok's position is weakened if he tries to extend his argument outside a certain set of parameters. Then again, his audience is likely to consist of bigots who won't bother to listen even if Solok defines his parameters.

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Old March 28 2013, 02:22 PM   #36
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
If Solok truly thought Humans were an inferior species, then it is illogical for him to be associated in any kind with them (and that includes both Federation citizenship and service in Starfleet).
As I said before, it is just as illogical - perhaps even more so - to even think in the first place that humans are inferior to Vulcans. (The concept of 'superior' and 'inferior' races are, logically, meaningless. It's emotional and illogical to believe in such things. Solok, being Vulcan, is not entitled to that.) Solok obviously believes that, so it's hardly a stretch that he compounds that supposed "illogic" by joining Starfleet.

Besides, perhaps the reason Solok did that was so he could rub it in the humans' faces, so to speak. Solok believes in the superiority of Vulcans, so he joins Starfleet in order to try and prove it.
I believe that's an extraordinary stretch. I think it's more likely that Solok just has a superiority complex. I'm sure Solok does believe that Vulcans do some things better than Humans do, just like someone like McCoy may believe Humans do some things better than Vulcans. Such opinions can be viewed as racist, but then any discussion about the differences between races can be considered racist.
As for the T'Kumbra: I still believe that Solok could have used his influence at Starfleet Command in order to populate his ship with an all-Vulcan crew. That way, he gets the best of both worlds: he gets to serve in Starfleet, but not alongside "filthy humans".
I think that goes straight into the realm of implausible and totally undermines the very principles the Federation was built on. I believe that the T'Kumbra was simply a ship launched from Vulcan and just had an all-Vulcan crew during that point in time. Heck, by now, the ship may even have Humans and other Federation races as members of its complement following a recent crew rotation away from Vulcan.
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Old March 28 2013, 02:57 PM   #37
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think that goes straight into the realm of implausible and totally undermines the very principles the Federation was built on.
I don't, I think some physical and cultural divides are far to large to bridge. Look at what happened with Vorik and Torres in Blood Fever, Spock and Kirk in Amok Time or Picard reprimanding Worf in Reunion. You're asking too much for folks to put away inherent genetic traits and cultural training.

Spock was half-human and still kept his quarters warmer than the rest of the ship. Why should races who evolved under tremendously different environmental conditions have to live/work in discomfort under the guise of diversity?
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Old March 28 2013, 03:40 PM   #38
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

There's never been a tv show where 90% of the cast were visually apparent aliens in an interplanetary/interstellar community. Hollywood thinks people wont accept or indentify with them and unfortunately they are probably right.
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Old March 28 2013, 03:45 PM   #39
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

Timo wrote: View Post
(The concept of 'superior' and 'inferior' races are, logically, meaningless. It's emotional and illogical to believe in such things. Solok, being Vulcan, is not entitled to that.)
I don't understand this sort of PC bullshit. If species A has greater strength on the average than species B, then species A is superior in strength. If A has better memory than B, A is superior in memory. And so forth.

It can be debated till bovine rehabilitation whether a good score in, say, hearing will restore the worth of species B after it has scored dismally against A in everything else. But Solok need not be concerned with that. He can count the score of Vulcans on those points that pertain to prowess in Starfleet service and compare it against the score of humans, and reach the absolutely correct conclusion that Vulcans are superior to humans as Starfleet officers and crewmen.

That is, assuming that the scores justify that. But we are given no reason to think they would not.

Certainly Solok comes off as a bigot because the impression we get is that he believes in "overall" superiority of Vulcans, whereas as already said, that's a battleground without rules: anybody can come and say either that

a) all species are equal because the various easily observed superiorities somehow always happen to cancel each other out exactly or
b) in fact B is superior to A because the one attribute where B triumphs is more important than all the ones where A triumphs put together.

Of course, a) and b) represent true bigotry, a deliberate perverting of facts by the introduction of frivolous "weights" for the scores, but Solok's position is weakened if he tries to extend his argument outside a certain set of parameters. Then again, his audience is likely to consist of bigots who won't bother to listen even if Solok defines his parameters.

Timo Saloniemi

There are species who will be "superior", some may billions of years older, and would be so on every measurable level, however the question has to be whether they believe every species has equal "rights" even if there is such inequality. I'm hoping this is the case.

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Old March 28 2013, 04:33 PM   #40
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

BillJ wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think that goes straight into the realm of implausible and totally undermines the very principles the Federation was built on.
I don't, I think some physical and cultural divides are far to large to bridge. Look at what happened with Vorik and Torres in Blood Fever, Spock and Kirk in Amok Time or Picard reprimanding Worf in Reunion. You're asking too much for folks to put away inherent genetic traits and cultural training.

Spock was half-human and still kept his quarters warmer than the rest of the ship. Why should races who evolved under tremendously different environmental conditions have to live/work in discomfort under the guise of diversity?
Actually, none of this is at all what I'm talking about, but rather the idea that the Federation would condone segregation based entirely on someone's personal dislike of another Federation race.
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Old March 28 2013, 06:20 PM   #41
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

RAMA wrote: View Post
There's never been a tv show where 90% of the cast were visually apparent aliens in an interplanetary/interstellar community.
Babylon Five?

Navigator_NCC2120 wrote: View Post
There was this exchange crewman wearing some equipment to help him breath while on the Enterprise-D from the Season 2 episode "A Matter of Honor".
In the rec room scene ifrom ST:TMP, there was (iirc) a crewmember with a mask that covered his entire face. Must be a very isolating.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
As for the T'Kumbra: I still believe that Solok could have used his influence at Starfleet Command in order to populate his ship with an all-Vulcan crew. That way, he gets the best of both worlds: he gets to serve in Starfleet, but not alongside "filthy humans".
If Captain Solok was able to fill his command staff with Vulcans who harboured similar view to his own, then any non-Vulcan who was hapless enough to be assigned to Solok's ship could find their lives (both on duty and off) so unpleasent and down right objectionable, that they would soon formally request a transfer. A request that Captain Solok would swiftly authorize.

But only after Solok publically berated the crewmember for request one in the first place.

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Old March 28 2013, 10:17 PM   #42
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

^ It would be very interesting to see what would happen if a human crewmember did serve under Solok's command, AND was capable of standing up to him. How would Solok react if a human underling chose to argue against Solok's treatment of humans and do so logically?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I believe that the T'Kumbra was simply a ship launched from Vulcan and just had an all-Vulcan crew during that point in time. Heck, by now, the ship may even have Humans and other Federation races as members of its complement following a recent crew rotation away from Vulcan.
Well, not exactly...

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Old March 29 2013, 10:29 AM   #43
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

however the question has to be whether they believe every species has equal "rights" even if there is such inequality. I'm hoping this is the case.
Should it be, though? Solok has a point in that a species that's, say, wheelchair-bound or much shorter than average or perhaps suffering from dyslexia might find life happier in some role other than Starfleet frontline service, and in that the Federation is much better off if those species are not allowed to participate in its frontline defense. Similarly, Solok would have to admit that a species superior to Vulcans might be outside the parameters of ideal Starfleet cannonfodder, and might be destined to, say, rule the UFP or do its cutting edge research.

But such segregation only extends to one narrow area of life, the practicing of a profession. Does this really detract from the equality of a species? Bajorans had found a caste system so perfectly workable that they apparently stuck to it for hundreds of thousands of years - the ultimate proof of concept...

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Old March 29 2013, 12:11 PM   #44
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

Captain McBain wrote: View Post
I'd like to see an all-Excalbian ship, but I'm guessing they don't travel in ships.
I'm assuming this is a joke, right? Were they ever admitted to Starfleet? I don't know of any extended fiction which revisits The Savage Curtain, but I was going to do so in my show so it would be good to know.
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Old March 29 2013, 06:24 PM   #45
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Re: Same-species ship; not very UFP?

Captain McBain wrote: View Post
I'd like to see an all-Excalbian ship, but I'm guessing they don't travel in ships.
They were able to clear a relatively large area of the surface of their world of the sea of lava that was once there. And cool that area pretty quickly. This is (or could be) an indication of a technological society.

I assume that Lincoln and the others were actually Excalbians who had changed form somehow, or then articial constructs.

Provided their material science was advanced enough, they should have the ability to construct ships. Become a Federation member by the time of TNG? Maybe.

Perhaps they could serve along side Hortas'.

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