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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 25 2013, 09:06 PM   #46
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

indolover wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post

Speak for yourself.
Isn't that what I did?

Well either that nor narcissistically project your biases onto others.
What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
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Old March 26 2013, 07:16 AM   #47
Vanyel
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
Isn't that what I did?

Well either that nor narcissistically project your biases onto others.
What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
It actually showed how much more powerful the Borg are than the Federation. Picard's orders were to investigate and keep the Borg busy while a fleet was being prepared to properly fight the Borg. Picard went in knowing it could well be a suicide mission or at best, a game of hide and seek, to keep the Borg occupied.
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Old March 26 2013, 06:00 PM   #48
Danger Ace
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
The problem I have is that the main character trait that characters express the most in DS9 (Sisko excepted I guess) is selfishness. Now that's easy to identify with, as most people are selfish almost by default, but I don't find it an appealing trait in a protagonist, which is why I also don't like the JJ Trek characterizations, where Kirk is highly self-centered.
You're definition of "selfish" strikes me as somewhat unique, unevenly applied and unduly restricted to Deep Space Nine. In fairness (and "in my opinion"), Picard was, just as "selfish" as any other character you could point to (at least as you seem wont to define the term). He was also preachy, arrogant and blase at times. Not that I didn't like TNG or the Picard character, but, to be fair, there was a lot to like and dislike there.

In terms of the friction between Sisko and Picard, I have not seen (though perhaps I missed it) anyone mention how uncomfortable and self-conscious Picard got when Cmdr. Sisko mentioned Wolf-359. Picard's reaction gives credibility to Sisko's pain and point-of-view.

Was Picard responsible for his actions as part of the Borg Collective and the consequences? Was Chekov responsible for the death of Mr. Scott's nephew in "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn?"

My personal answer would be "no" to both, however, knowing that intellectually is seperate from the emotional reality of suffering and loss. I think Sisko's anger, resentment and frustration was all very real and reasonable under the circumstance, therefore, I think it would have been a poor choice to have Sisko treat his first face-to-face encounter with Picard as nonchalant and routine.
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Old March 26 2013, 11:00 PM   #49
Sadara
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
The problem I have is that the main character trait that characters express the most in DS9 (Sisko excepted I guess) is selfishness. Now that's easy to identify with, as most people are selfish almost by default, but I don't find it an appealing trait in a protagonist, which is why I also don't like the JJ Trek characterizations, where Kirk is highly self-centered.
You're definition of "selfish" strikes me as somewhat unique, unevenly applied and unduly restricted to Deep Space Nine. In fairness (and "in my opinion"), Picard was, just as "selfish" as any other character you could point to (at least as you seem wont to define the term). He was also preachy, arrogant and blase at times. Not that I didn't like TNG or the Picard character, but, to be fair, there was a lot to like and dislike there.

In terms of the friction between Sisko and Picard, I have not seen (though perhaps I missed it) anyone mention how uncomfortable and self-conscious Picard got when Cmdr. Sisko mentioned Wolf-359. Picard's reaction gives credibility to Sisko's pain and point-of-view.

Was Picard responsible for his actions as part of the Borg Collective and the consequences? Was Chekov responsible for the death of Mr. Scott's nephew in "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn?"

My personal answer would be "no" to both, however, knowing that intellectually is seperate from the emotional reality of suffering and loss. I think Sisko's anger, resentment and frustration was all very real and reasonable under the circumstance, therefore, I think it would have been a poor choice to have Sisko treat his first face-to-face encounter with Picard as nonchalant and routine.
The scene between Sisko and Picard highlighted how much healing they both had to do. Sometimes people don't realize how unfair they've been to someone until all the anger comes pouring out of them at that person. We've all said things that we looked back on later and regretted because it was impulsive and we were too emotionally involved.
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Old March 26 2013, 11:25 PM   #50
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Also, let's not forget Picard is an intensely private person. He showed intense remorse, yes, but only to his brother, who would remain very intimate to him in a sense, despite possible estrangement over the years.

As far as starfleet records are concerned, Picard is a formal prick, gets taken over by the Borg, is liberated, doesn't need give to any apology as he was taken over, and gets to be a formal prick again.

Or at the very least, it may appear that way to S1 Sisko.

(BTW, it would have been very interesting to see how S7 Sisko would have reacted to the same situation).

If anyone has raised those points earlier, my apologies (didn't read through every post of this thread ).
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Old March 27 2013, 01:45 AM   #51
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

I don't really get this thread as it seems to ignore the rest of Emissary. Sisko is a dick to Picard, then goes through a transition where the Prophets help him move on from his grief and stop living in the past. Then he meets Picard again and is perfectly fine with him, having learned from his experience.

It seems pretty pointless to hate on Sisko for it throughout the show when it is something he grows out of in the first episode. You make it sound like he curses Picard's name every week!
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Old March 27 2013, 02:23 AM   #52
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
Isn't that what I did?

Well either that nor narcissistically project your biases onto others.
What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
Common sense according to whom? Your mighty opinion?

I simply don't think people should be blamed or maligned for things they didn't do. Unlike you seemingly, I see both sides on an issue. If that's how you resolve conflicts in your real life by being one-sided, well heaven help you and all people like you.
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Old March 27 2013, 02:25 AM   #53
indolover
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Tosk wrote: View Post
Captain McBain wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
It's easy for us as an audience to say that Sisko was too harsh (I disagree, but whatever) ...but if a man who had suffered brain trauma and was not himself murdered your family, I'd bet real money you'd have an attitude when meeting him three years later after he was healed. If you say you'd be fine with him, I don't believe you.
I don't agree with the analogy. Someone who has brain trauma and is 'not himself' still knows that murder is wrong; the Borg care not whether murder is wrong and Picard had no control over his actions anyway.
I made the guy up and I say he didn't know right from wrong.

Anyway, that's not the point of my example...it's not about whether Picard is to blame or not, the point is about Sisko's reaction to him.
Right and wrong don't exist.
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Old March 27 2013, 02:07 PM   #54
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

indolover wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post


Well either that nor narcissistically project your biases onto others.
What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
Common sense according to whom? Your mighty opinion?
You need to look up the definition of "common sense".

I simply don't think people should be blamed or maligned for things they didn't do. Unlike you seemingly, I see both sides on an issue. If that's how you resolve conflicts in your real life by being one-sided, well heaven help you and all people like you.
It is easy to bee both sides of any issue when you're doing butt-hurt ivory tower philosophying. If you think you're special for doing this you're kidding yourself.

What you are obviously unable to understand is that, when your loved ones are the ones doing the dying, ivory tower philosophying is just a bad joke.
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Old March 27 2013, 02:18 PM   #55
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post


Well either that nor narcissistically project your biases onto others.
What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
It actually showed how much more powerful the Borg are than the Federation. Picard's orders were to investigate and keep the Borg busy while a fleet was being prepared to properly fight the Borg. Picard went in knowing it could well be a suicide mission or at best, a game of hide and seek, to keep the Borg occupied.
Yes, Picard knew from the start that the borg's military technology is far better than the federation's and that the borg massively outgun his ship.

He also knew that drones can easily teleport through federation shields and are, individually, more than a match for his men.
And he found out that the borg wanted him - personally.

Yet - there were no additional security personnel (or measures that fulfill the minimal standard of springing into action at his capture - we're not even talking about being effective) on the bridge or any other part of the ship; no other measures to prevent his capture (yes, up to and including suicide pills).
As said - Picard was either incompetent or ridiculously naive; most definitely culpable.
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Old March 27 2013, 03:34 PM   #56
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
It actually showed how much more powerful the Borg are than the Federation. Picard's orders were to investigate and keep the Borg busy while a fleet was being prepared to properly fight the Borg. Picard went in knowing it could well be a suicide mission or at best, a game of hide and seek, to keep the Borg occupied.
Yes, Picard knew from the start that the borg's military technology is far better than the federation's and that the borg massively outgun his ship.

He also knew that drones can easily teleport through federation shields and are, individually, more than a match for his men.
And he found out that the borg wanted him - personally.

Yet - there were no additional security personnel (or measures that fulfill the minimal standard of springing into action at his capture - we're not even talking about being effective) on the bridge or any other part of the ship; no other measures to prevent his capture (yes, up to and including suicide pills).
As said - Picard was either incompetent or ridiculously naive; most definitely culpable.
Interesting idea about suicide pills, but that does highlight an important aspect of TBOBW. The Borg should not have been allowed to get their hands on Picard, though I wonder if the Borg would have just picked someone else fairly high up the ladder? In any event, Picard's capture compromised the security of the entire Federation. I'm sure the Vulcans were significantly unimpressed by the lack of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" actions there.
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Old March 27 2013, 10:50 PM   #57
Vanyel
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

What Tosk said is common-sense.
You calling it narcissistic merely shows your own biases you project onto others.

As for Picard - the borg crushed Picard's "iron" will with little more than an afterthought and used his knowledge and skills to bitch-slap the federation.
Deal with it.
And, yes, that was partly Picard's fault, too. Capturing the enemy captain is quite a feat for the capturer - far harder than merely destroying the enemy ship; it highlights either the incompetence of the captured or his naivete.
It actually showed how much more powerful the Borg are than the Federation. Picard's orders were to investigate and keep the Borg busy while a fleet was being prepared to properly fight the Borg. Picard went in knowing it could well be a suicide mission or at best, a game of hide and seek, to keep the Borg occupied.
Yes, Picard knew from the start that the borg's military technology is far better than the federation's and that the borg massively outgun his ship.

He also knew that drones can easily teleport through federation shields and are, individually, more than a match for his men.
And he found out that the borg wanted him - personally.

Yet - there were no additional security personnel (or measures that fulfill the minimal standard of springing into action at his capture - we're not even talking about being effective) on the bridge or any other part of the ship; no other measures to prevent his capture (yes, up to and including suicide pills).
As said - Picard was either incompetent or ridiculously naive; most definitely culpable.
No one knew that the Borg wanted Picard, until they met up with the Borg ship. Infact they were surprised about the sudden shift in the Borg's intent.

Worf: Captain you are being hailed.

Picard: I am?

Worf: Yes Captain, by name.

Riker: Data, is that the same ship we faced at J-2-5?

Data: Uncertain Commander, but the dimensions are precisely the same.

Picard: On screen. I am Captain Jean-Luc Picard....

Borg: Jean-Luc Picard, Captain of the starship Enterprise, registry N-C-C-1-7-0-1-D. You will lower your shields and prepare to transport yourself aboard our vessel if you do not cooperate we will destroy your ship.

Picard: You have committed acts of aggression against the United Federation of Planets if you do not withdraw immediately...

Borg: You will surrender yourself or we will destroy your ship. Your defensive capabilities are unable to withstand us....

Riker: What the hell do they want from you?

Shelby: I thought they weren't interested in human life forms, only our technology?

Picard: Their priorities seemed to have changed.
So the whole idea of adding extra security to the bridge was not even a consideration.

Assimilation was not even know about at that point either.

Borg: Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people.

Picard: I have nothing to say to you. And I will resist you with my last ounce of strength.

Borg: Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours.

Picard: Impossible. My culture is based on freedom and self determination.

Borg: Freedom is irrelevant. Self determination is irrelevant. You must comply.

Picard: We would rather die.

Borg: Death is irrelevant. Your archaic cultures are authority driven. To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a human voice will speak for us in all communications. You have been chosen to be that voice.
and

Riker: The Captain?

Data: We were unable to retrieve him. The Captain has been altered by the Borg.

Riker: "Altered"?

Worf: He IS a Borg.
After that it was learned that by being assimilated your knowledge is now a part of the Borg.

Locutus: The knowledge...and experience...of the human..."Picard" is part of us now. It has prepared us for all possible courses of action. Your resistance is hopeless, Number One.
They didn't know about assimilation only that the Borg wanted Picard. They didn't even know why they wanted him. A Klingon and an android seemed security enough. And if you want to blame Picard for not doing more, neither did Starfleet at Wolf 359. The Saratoga only had the (presumably) Chief of Security on the Bridge. And that was after the Enterprise was able to tell the fleet, "By the way, since the Borg captured Picard they know everything he does and another Captain or an Admiral would really help them out a lot too. Good luck in the battle." Starfleet didn't even think to tell the ships warping to Wolf 359 to load as many civilians as possible on shuttles and leave them behind.

Starfleet knew that they could be running a suicide mission after they were told what happened.
Hanson: In less than 24 hours this armada is going to hit that Borg vessel with everything we can muster. Either they survive or we do.
The Borg also mention death as being irrelevant. Could that mean they could still have taken the knowledge from Picard even after a "suicide pill"? Or would you suggest, that once the Borg beamed onto the bridge, Worf should have vaporized the Captain thereby preventing any possible way for the Borg to capture him and take his knowledge?

Could more have been done? Yes. Ram the Borg ship. Initiate a Warp Core Breech. Blow up the damn ship. To keep their hands off Picard and do as much damage as possible. Except no one knew why they wanted him, or about assimilation or what it means to be assimilated.

Capturing the Captain to them, at that time, meant no more than if the Romulans had captured him. They would get information, but it would be days or weeks before they could use it.

Everything now known about assimilation was not known then.

And if they couldn't get Picard, Riker would do nicely, or Shelby, or Worf or Geordi or Data or any member of Engineering. That would have given them what they needed to do what they did at Wolf 359.

So where are they being naive?
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Old March 28 2013, 03:41 PM   #58
Dal Rassak
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

The scene never made me dislike Sisko; it made him human. Of course he knew beforehand he was going to meet Picard but when you're face to face with the person who was, however much against his own will, still responsible for the death of your beloved wife (in the sense of being the cause of it), you might have trouble keeping your emotions from showing.
Of course the encounter is equally difficult for Picard, as he never committed those actions voluntarily but "remote-controlled" by the Borg. Seeing the human face of the suffering you were forced to cause must be awful.

It seems to me a lot of Federation characters get stick from fans if they ever dare to show that they're angry or conflicted in any way, if they are ever anything other than anodyne ideals. Riker gets stick because he has a quick temper and doesn't suffer fools gladly. Keiko gets stick because she's sometimes stressed out and gets pissed off at her husband. I don't get it. It's what makes the characters something other than cardboard cut-outs.
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Old March 28 2013, 11:20 PM   #59
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

I loved the scene between Picard and Sisko. Was it fair? No. It wasn't fair to either one of them. Picard was both victim and victimizer and even after he's supposedly healed he has to look at people like Sisko who's worlds he destroyed. Sisko suffered a horrible loss, and it was Picard's face on the viewscreen that was telling him how futile all his efforts were and that he associated with his wife's death.

For Picard, it gave us a great opportunity to see him react to someone outside his tight social circle. The look on his face when Sisko angrily came out with Wolf 359 just said it all. Picard was pained both at the reminder of what he had done to him and had done to others along with the Sisko's loss. Sisko's own pain is understandable as well. If he was able to shrug off the tragic murder of his wife even years later, I'd be calling him cold and distant for that. Not for showing emotion and anger when confronted with his wife's killer.

Was it fair to either of them? Of course not. Picard knew Sisko had a right to be angry, even if placing the blame on him personally wasn't his fault. Picard blamed himself after all for not being strong enough to resist them so how can he hold Sisko at fault for being angry? Sisko deep down probably knew that Picard wasn't personally responsible, but sometimes emotion makes us do things we shouldn't. He probably came to terms with that once he realized his life was taking a new direction again after his second meeting with Picard. I personally liked the fact that they didn't need to say anything about it during their second meeting, as if they both understood.
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Old March 29 2013, 12:39 AM   #60
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I don't really get this thread as it seems to ignore the rest of Emissary. Sisko is a dick to Picard, then goes through a transition where the Prophets help him move on from his grief and stop living in the past. Then he meets Picard again and is perfectly fine with him, having learned from his experience.

It seems pretty pointless to hate on Sisko for it throughout the show when it is something he grows out of in the first episode. You make it sound like he curses Picard's name every week!
Well, there is simply no talking to you when you get all logical, putting things in context and all. I suppose we'll just have to agree to agree on this one.
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