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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 24 2013, 03:05 PM   #31
Timo
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

The idea that eugenics aims at creating tall blonde blue-eyes is obvious enough. But both "Space Seed" and ST2 did their damnedest to portray the Augments as a bunch of individualistic leaders, not mindless followers; ST2 even had them make fun of the concept of uniform, by accessorizing their rags with Starfleet jackets and whatnot.

Not Hitler Jugend then, not by a long shot. Evil, ruthless supermen, yes. But not a well-organized movement of them. Religious cults probably hit closer to home for the audiences of both the 1980s and the 2010s, with their brainwashing of children and the two-level organizations of one Exalted Leader and lots of worthless followers.

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Old March 25 2013, 01:17 AM   #32
Timewalker
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Timo wrote: View Post
The idea that eugenics aims at creating tall blonde blue-eyes is obvious enough. But both "Space Seed" and ST2 did their damnedest to portray the Augments as a bunch of individualistic leaders, not mindless followers; ST2 even had them make fun of the concept of uniform, by accessorizing their rags with Starfleet jackets and whatnot.
If you'd been living like Khan's people for all that time (obviously not one of them was intelligent enough to figure out how to sew), wouldn't you grab the chance to add something to your wardrobe? The jackets were practical, as well as "trophies", and the insignia wouldn't have meant much more to the younger ones than a different kind of ornament.
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Old March 25 2013, 04:16 PM   #33
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

The use of the term "augments" to describe Khan and his followers is obviously a retcon, since it was never used in "Space Seed" or TWOK. Forgive my ignorance, but when was that word actually first used in Trek?
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Old March 25 2013, 04:41 PM   #34
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

First used in ENT during, fittingly enough, the Augments trilogy of episodes.
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Old March 25 2013, 08:42 PM   #35
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Then again, most things relating to Khan are retcons, including those from "Space Seed" already. That episode rewrote the prehistory of Star Trek, introducing the Eugenics Wars, the sublight starships and suspended animation. Adding a specific name for the selectively bred, oops, genetically engineered supermen is just an addition rather than a contradiction, just like the three things mentioned above, and in fact affects our perception of the supermen much less than those three things affected our perception of the world that had launched the Valiant.

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Old March 25 2013, 08:54 PM   #36
Greg Cox
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

I gotta admit, I wish the word "Augments" had been coined before I wrote my Khan books. Would have been convenient to have a nice shorthand term for genetically-engineered superhumans.

(And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)
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Old March 25 2013, 09:51 PM   #37
Olive, the Other Reindeer
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
. . . (And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)
Naturally, since genetic modification as we understand it has only been a reality since the 1980s. Traditional "positive eugenics" (selective breeding) is a comparatively slow and inefficient way of creating a race of superhumans.
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Old March 25 2013, 10:46 PM   #38
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Timo wrote: View Post
Then again, most things relating to Khan are retcons, including those from "Space Seed" already. That episode rewrote the prehistory of Star Trek, introducing the Eugenics Wars, the sublight starships and suspended animation. Adding a specific name for the selectively bred, oops, genetically engineered supermen is just an addition rather than a contradiction, just like the three things mentioned above, and in fact affects our perception of the supermen much less than those three things affected our perception of the world that had launched the Valiant.

Timo Saloniemi

I gotta disagree. Or I just don't understand. What did Space Seed retcon?
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Old March 25 2013, 11:21 PM   #39
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Khan's followers in the movie look a lot older than 15 to me...
They are "hyper-aged", much like how Klingon kids grow to maturity so quickly (ie. Alexander in TNG and DS9).

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Too bad about V. But I preferred Judson Scott as Bennu in "Phoenix." (that was a Really Short Series!)
Lt James was in the last six or so episodes of "V: The Series" and, as mentioned, was slated to become a more important character if they'd been renewed for Season Two.

As for "The Phoenix", that's how come Judson Scott has no credit in ST II. His agent pushed for a credit in the opening titles, because "The Phoenix" episodes had yet to air but were anticipated to make Judson a big name. Eventually, Judson was encouraged to "waive billing", which he assumed meant they'd lost the battle for opening credits positioning - but he was horrified, on opening night, to realize that it meant no credit at all.
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Old March 25 2013, 11:31 PM   #40
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

scotpens wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
. . . (And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)
Naturally, since genetic modification as we understand it has only been a reality since the 1980s. Traditional "positive eugenics" (selective breeding) is a comparatively slow and inefficient way of creating a race of superhumans.
Genetic engineering is a fancier term for what humans have been doing ever since they discovered how to manipulate food plants (ie. thousands of years). Selective breeding is just another name for it, as well. No retcon there.
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Old March 25 2013, 11:39 PM   #41
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
(And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)
Well, Kirk does mention "controlled genetics."

KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.
KHAN: A new life, a chance to build a world. Other things I doubt you would understand.
KIRK: Why? Because I'm not a product of controlled genetics?
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Old March 26 2013, 07:43 AM   #42
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
(And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)
Well, Kirk does mention "controlled genetics."

KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.
KHAN: A new life, a chance to build a world. Other things I doubt you would understand.
KIRK: Why? Because I'm not a product of controlled genetics?
That's right, but for some reason his words with Spock about selective breeding were a lot more memorable.

Anyway, "controlled genetics" could mean something as simple as selective breeding if we wanted to read it that way.
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Old March 26 2013, 12:35 PM   #43
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Maybe this is too far off, but a person like Khan may very well have had many wives. There are many kings, pashas, rajahs, and other rulers that have several wives.

Maybe he had a couple in the freezer.

Last edited by Marsden; March 26 2013 at 04:56 PM.
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Old March 26 2013, 04:14 PM   #44
Greg Cox
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
. . . (And Timo is right; even the idea that Khan and his followers were genetically-engineered is something of a retcon. "Space Seed" only mentions selective breeding.)
Naturally, since genetic modification as we understand it has only been a reality since the 1980s. Traditional "positive eugenics" (selective breeding) is a comparatively slow and inefficient way of creating a race of superhumans.
Genetic engineering is a fancier term for what humans have been doing ever since they discovered how to manipulate food plants (ie. thousands of years). Selective breeding is just another name for it, as well. No retcon there.
True, but nowadays, and especially in an sf context, "genetic engineering" usually refers to scientists tinkering around with DNA in a lab. As opposed to eugenic breeding programs of the sort discussed in "Space Seed."

Granted, the use of the term "controlled genetics" allows for a bit of wiggle room.
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Old March 26 2013, 06:50 PM   #45
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Re: When exactly did Marla McGivers die?

Just wanted to say that, partly prompted by this thread, I'm re-reading the appropriate novels.
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