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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old March 25 2013, 06:46 PM   #46
The Wormhole
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
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What works on TV doesn't always work with movies. The kind of plots Trek does with its movies generally do require villains.
Exactly. If Hollywood can't manage a ST movie without it requiring Super Evil Villains and kewl space battle climax for every entry, maybe ST shouldn't be in the cinema. Maybe it should remain a television production.
Undeniably, television is where Star trek excels. But if it weren't for the movies, I doubt interest in Star Trek would have continued through the 1980s, which I believe is what made TNG possible, and from there everything Trek related in the 1990s and until Enterprise's end in 2005.

I don't particularly care for the Abrams movies, but they are a necessary evil. They are once again drumming up interest in Trek and will make it possible for a new TV series someday.
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Old March 25 2013, 07:17 PM   #47
Pavonis
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
What works on TV doesn't always work with movies. The kind of plots Trek does with its movies generally do require villains.
Exactly. If Hollywood can't manage a ST movie without it requiring Super Evil Villains and kewl space battle climax for every entry, maybe ST shouldn't be in the cinema. Maybe it should remain a television production.

At this point, ST is becoming generic action sci-fi with space battles and evil villains and ST was never about that.
I thought that is exactly what Trek was and is about. It can have more, but it starts there.

Anyway, how could it "remain" a tv production when there hasn't been a Trek show on for years? Trek isn't more of one kind of media than another. It has been and can be everything - literature, games, films, tv. But it can't always be all of them simultaneously. Trek will remain a film franchise for the foreseeable future. If the films tank, don't count on new tv productions.
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Old March 25 2013, 07:26 PM   #48
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I don't particularly care for the Abrams movies, but they are a necessary evil. They are once again drumming up interest in Trek and will make it possible for a new TV series someday.
Absolutely this.
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Old March 25 2013, 09:40 PM   #49
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

I couldn't care less if there's another series named StarTrek, unless it is the kind of show I like, and not just vengeance-crazed, scarey-looking baddies blowin' crap up. I will have to find pleasure in things not named Star Trek, or in rewatchings of eps 15-49 years old. Both are fine by me.
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Old March 25 2013, 11:10 PM   #50
SchwEnt
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Pavonis wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
What works on TV doesn't always work with movies. The kind of plots Trek does with its movies generally do require villains.
Exactly. If Hollywood can't manage a ST movie without it requiring Super Evil Villains and kewl space battle climax for every entry, maybe ST shouldn't be in the cinema. Maybe it should remain a television production.

At this point, ST is becoming generic action sci-fi with space battles and evil villains and ST was never about that.
I thought that is exactly what Trek was and is about. It can have more, but it starts there.

Anyway, how could it "remain" a tv production when there hasn't been a Trek show on for years? Trek isn't more of one kind of media than another. It has been and can be everything - literature, games, films, tv. But it can't always be all of them simultaneously. Trek will remain a film franchise for the foreseeable future. If the films tank, don't count on new tv productions.
With all the various media, ST can be all the things it does well... adventure stories, human drama, future explorations, morality plays, character pieces, and yes, space battles with bad guys.

But it seems the movies can only show this one minor aspect of ST, space battles with evil villains. What about exploring the human condition? Exploring strange new worlds? Can ST no longer go where no one has gone before and must instead be about fighting evil villains with kewl explosions every time?
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Old March 25 2013, 11:16 PM   #51
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

They could do that, but it would be a massive flop. Not enough people want that in a Star Trek movie for it to be viable.
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Old March 25 2013, 11:23 PM   #52
Pavonis
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Pretty much. Star Trek in film is an action-movie-in-space genre. It's not going to be a dramatic science fiction film about the "human condition" or "exploring the unknown". Wanting it to be means you'll just be disappointed.

Anyone who wants Trek to be science fiction should look to the literature.
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Old March 26 2013, 01:22 AM   #53
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is a great actor but in the trailers all he does is snarl in a black trenchcoat and blow stuff up. I doubt he'll compete with Winn, Dukat, Weyoun and Female Changeling in terms of great Trek villains.

The movies tend to be big, dumb, loud Hollywood blockbusters so lack the nuance I like in Trek. The best "villain" in the movie series is V'ger. An unknown, alien being that opens up philisophical questions. That we've de-evolved from that to fucking Eric "FIRE EVERYTHING!" Bana blowing planets up for no reason is a sad state of affairs.
Please, his reason is so obvious you'd have to be dead not to notice it.

The "devolution" started and stopped with TWOK. That's the blueprint for Trek's on screen success. They've been trying to recapture that for decades. Looks like they finally did, in spades.
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Old March 26 2013, 03:37 AM   #54
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

It is much easier to write a mustache twirling villain than contruct a villain from immoral ideals and falllacies in our culture.

And I'm sorry, for how much I love it, Star Trek has rarely had writers of that caliber.
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Old March 26 2013, 08:07 PM   #55
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is a great actor but in the trailers all he does is snarl in a black trenchcoat and blow stuff up. I doubt he'll compete with Winn, Dukat, Weyoun and Female Changeling in terms of great Trek villains.

The movies tend to be big, dumb, loud Hollywood blockbusters so lack the nuance I like in Trek. The best "villain" in the movie series is V'ger. An unknown, alien being that opens up philisophical questions. That we've de-evolved from that to fucking Eric "FIRE EVERYTHING!" Bana blowing planets up for no reason is a sad state of affairs.
Please, his reason is so obvious you'd have to be dead not to notice it.
no rational reason, then

"Waah, I'm mad, I will destroy others." It gets old.
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Old March 26 2013, 08:46 PM   #56
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

I always feel like the true villain of Trek is humanity's bloody past.

So when we see a stereotypical action movie villain who's nasty for the sake of nasty, it's extremely boring.
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Old March 26 2013, 10:17 PM   #57
Rusty Nova
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

wouldn't you have to see all the film before judging whether cumberbatch's character has a reason for his actions? seems like a fuckload of presumption going on here.
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Old March 27 2013, 02:17 AM   #58
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

blah blah blah Gene's Vision™

yadda e yadda dumb movies these days

blah blah blah they dont make em like they used to
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Old March 27 2013, 02:52 AM   #59
Geoff Peterson
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

plynch wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is a great actor but in the trailers all he does is snarl in a black trenchcoat and blow stuff up. I doubt he'll compete with Winn, Dukat, Weyoun and Female Changeling in terms of great Trek villains.

The movies tend to be big, dumb, loud Hollywood blockbusters so lack the nuance I like in Trek. The best "villain" in the movie series is V'ger. An unknown, alien being that opens up philisophical questions. That we've de-evolved from that to fucking Eric "FIRE EVERYTHING!" Bana blowing planets up for no reason is a sad state of affairs.
Please, his reason is so obvious you'd have to be dead not to notice it.
no rational reason, then

"Waah, I'm mad, I will destroy others." It gets old.
Did someone claim Nero was rational? The man's home planet was destroyed, along with the people he loved. Of course he's not going to be rational. I think something like might lead you to do some crazy things. It even happens in real life when tragedy strikes.

Nah, it doesn't get old. Its been driving entertainment for years and people seem to like it. It's all in the execution.
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Old March 27 2013, 07:09 PM   #60
The Wormhole
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Did someone claim Nero was rational? The man's home planet was destroyed, along with the people he loved. Of course he's not going to be rational. I think something like might lead you to do some crazy things. It even happens in real life when tragedy strikes.

Nah, it doesn't get old. Its been driving entertainment for years and people seem to like it. It's all in the execution.
That's all well and good, but at the end of the day Nero was a pretty terrible villain. The whole "IT HAPPENED!" rant shows he's a bit too irrational to be taken seriously. From Pike's persepctive, the destruction of Romulus won't HAPPEN for another 130 years, so screaming at him for not thinking IT HAPPENED isn't really accomplishing anything at all.
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