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Old March 25 2013, 03:26 AM   #31
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

plynch wrote: View Post
I was hoping for more depth after the last flick and people said not to hope in vain, as JJ was the Transformers guy.
No, that's Michael Bay.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:44 AM   #32
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
The problem is that antagonists such as Dukat are developed over the course of many years worth of episodes. A movie villain has to be developed and dealt with in the space of about two hours. That is where the writers did well with Khan and the Borg Queen - they were able to take antagonists who were previously developed and then take them to a new level.

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inklingstar, since when has TMP been critically appreciated?
Around the time that the Director's Edition DVD came out, I noticed a lot of people giving TMP respect as a harder sci-fi story, with interesting ideas despite the lack of action. I really started to appreciate it more around that time and I am sure I was not the only one.
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Old March 25 2013, 05:45 AM   #33
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

V'GER was a villain. Anything that destroys 3 Klingon Battlecruisers, Epsilon Nine, and Ilia for no apparent reason is a villain. Just because you find out it's motivation at the end of the movie, doesn't make it not a bad guy up until that point.

The Whalesong Probe in Voyage Home wasn't directing it's energy at humans exactly, but was going to kill them as a result of it's actions. Not a villain kinda like a hurricane isn't a villain.
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Old March 25 2013, 09:42 AM   #34
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

plynch wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
I was hoping for more depth after the last flick and people said not to hope in vain, as JJ was the Transformers guy. I'm not down with loud, smashy movies, but I think I get it.

Even if he were inclined, DS9 had hours of episodes in which to develop deep, nuanced characters (though it got comic-bookish at the end when they got demon-possessed and threw lightning bolts at each other and tumbled into hell. I digress.) A movie has two hours at the most. And it's 2013 summer blockbuster time. Depth doesn't put butts in seats and overpriced, deadly popcorn in mouths.

You hope, and I'll hope too, and maybe JJ'll come through. He says there will be tears. Of course, those lens flares can be hard on the eyes; maybe that's what he meant.
Thez needed to save the franchise and make a lot of money so it will be viable again. now they can make things more complex.
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Old March 25 2013, 10:12 AM   #35
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
plynch wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
I was hoping for more depth after the last flick and people said not to hope in vain, as JJ was the Transformers guy. I'm not down with loud, smashy movies, but I think I get it.

Even if he were inclined, DS9 had hours of episodes in which to develop deep, nuanced characters (though it got comic-bookish at the end when they got demon-possessed and threw lightning bolts at each other and tumbled into hell. I digress.) A movie has two hours at the most. And it's 2013 summer blockbuster time. Depth doesn't put butts in seats and overpriced, deadly popcorn in mouths.

You hope, and I'll hope too, and maybe JJ'll come through. He says there will be tears. Of course, those lens flares can be hard on the eyes; maybe that's what he meant.
I have faith J.J. will do well. I was very happy with ST09, and I'm hoping this one will supersede it in every good way.
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Old March 25 2013, 11:59 AM   #36
Sigokat
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
plynch wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
I was hoping for more depth after the last flick and people said not to hope in vain, as JJ was the Transformers guy. I'm not down with loud, smashy movies, but I think I get it.

Even if he were inclined, DS9 had hours of episodes in which to develop deep, nuanced characters (though it got comic-bookish at the end when they got demon-possessed and threw lightning bolts at each other and tumbled into hell. I digress.) A movie has two hours at the most. And it's 2013 summer blockbuster time. Depth doesn't put butts in seats and overpriced, deadly popcorn in mouths.

You hope, and I'll hope too, and maybe JJ'll come through. He says there will be tears. Of course, those lens flares can be hard on the eyes; maybe that's what he meant.
I have faith J.J. will do well. I was very happy with ST09, and I'm hoping this one will supersede it in every good way.
Agreed. I had some issues with ST09 when I first saw it, but upon further viewing it really grew on me and I thoroughly enjoy it. I watched it a couple days before I left home for this deployment.

I have high hopes for the new one and I think alot of that has to do with Cumberbath. I discovered him in Sherlock and think he's great. No matter who his character ends up being it will be a good performance I am sure.

I also found out that the base in Qatar where we get to take our 4 day R&R has a movie theater! I was already planning on taking my R&R around June and since the AAFES theaters usually get movies about a month or so after release I think I can plan my R&R right so I can see STID on the big screen! WOOT WOOT!!
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Old March 25 2013, 01:48 PM   #37
The Wormhole
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
Harrison will certainly be better than Nero, and I hope he comes close to the top tier of Trek movie villains like Khan and General Chang. But I don't expect him to be as complex or nuanced as Dukat or any of DS9's villains. Keep in mind, the main appeal of the bad guys on DS9 was watching them develop over a period of years. There's only so much you can do in a two hour movie.

plynch wrote: View Post
JJ was the Transformers guy. I'm not down with loud, smashy movies, but I think I get it.
Abrams had nothing to do with Transformer. You're thinking of Orci and Kurtzman, writers of Trek XI and STID who also wrote the Transformers movies.
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Old March 25 2013, 02:21 PM   #38
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

I've noticed Chang being named as an example of a good villain. How is that, exactly? I saw a lame baddie with awkwardly tacked-on Shakespeare quotes in a pathetic attempt to give him the illusion of depth. Not a patch on Kruge or even Shinzon.
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Old March 25 2013, 02:31 PM   #39
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Cumberbatch is a great actor but in the trailers all he does is snarl in a black trenchcoat and blow stuff up. I doubt he'll compete with Winn, Dukat, Weyoun and Female Changeling in terms of great Trek villains.

The movies tend to be big, dumb, loud Hollywood blockbusters so lack the nuance I like in Trek. The best "villain" in the movie series is V'ger. An unknown, alien being that opens up philisophical questions. That we've de-evolved from that to fucking Eric "FIRE EVERYTHING!" Bana blowing planets up for no reason is a sad state of affairs.
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Old March 25 2013, 02:43 PM   #40
The Wormhole
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I've noticed Chang being named as an example of a good villain. How is that, exactly? I saw a lame baddie with awkwardly tacked-on Shakespeare quotes in a pathetic attempt to give him the illusion of depth. Not a patch on Kruge or even Shinzon.
Having an eyepatch bolted onto his face is the very definition of badass. But also, the guy had a sense of style and sophistication, though maybe that is because of the Shakespeare quotes.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:12 PM   #41
Sigokat
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch is a great actor but in the trailers all he does is snarl in a black trenchcoat and blow stuff up. I doubt he'll compete with Winn, Dukat, Weyoun and Female Changeling in terms of great Trek villains.
Yes, I agree. I just think he will be a refreshing change from Nero and other Trek movie villains. At least I hope so.

And yeah, no way he'll be on the same level as DS9 baddies. I started off absolutely hating Weyoun and he ended up becoming my favorite DS9 bad guy, Combs was just excellent in the role.

I also like the Breen. Not because they look like Leia's character from ROTJ, but because I thought they were a cool race...and they had cool outfits, weapons, and ships. I also liked the mystery behind them and how it was left up to the viewers to decide what we thought they might look like underneath their uniforms.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:29 PM   #42
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
What works on TV doesn't always work with movies. The kind of plots Trek does with its movies generally do require villains.
Exactly. If Hollywood can't manage a ST movie without it requiring Super Evil Villains and kewl space battle climax for every entry, maybe ST shouldn't be in the cinema. Maybe it should remain a television production.

At this point, ST is becoming generic action sci-fi with space battles and evil villains and ST was never about that.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:36 PM   #43
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I've noticed Chang being named as an example of a good villain. How is that, exactly? I saw a lame baddie with awkwardly tacked-on Shakespeare quotes in a pathetic attempt to give him the illusion of depth. Not a patch on Kruge or even Shinzon.

he was smart, cultured, badass without being over the top about it, and he actually had decent motivation for a villain in a Trek movie, which some of the recent ones(Shinzon, Nero) haven't.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:48 PM   #44
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
At this point, ST is becoming generic action sci-fi with space battles and evil villains and ST was never about that.
It's always been part of Trek. It just happens to be the part that works best for a summer film.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:48 PM   #45
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

tv trek had plenty of underdeveloped villains with stupid motivations, like sela, lore, one-shot tos klingons, the gorn, the kazon guy that seska hung around with, the idiot thieves from starship mine, a seductive shuttlecraft, angry vulcan dictator from the enterprise 3 parter, etc so i don't know why people are surprised that the films have them too
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