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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 25 2013, 03:09 AM   #31
Use of Time
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

I place Sisko a few rungs below some of the other Captains. Not because of his character per say but just his overwrought acting was distracting at times. The man could enunciate the shit of his words when he got into one of his speeches.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:39 AM   #32
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
True, but if he had left it as "I don't like shows with story arcs." I'd have left him alone. But he added in he didn't like Sisko, so I had to know why.
I don't know if you're seeing it. Your friend is doing exactly what Sisko did.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:47 AM   #33
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

indolover wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post

Speak for yourself.
Isn't that what I did?

Well either that nor narcissistically project your biases onto others.
All I said is that I wouldn't believe that anyone here would be happy-go-lucky with a man who murdered their family, regardless of his state of mind at the time. How exactly is that narcissistic? What you call bias, I call my opinion based on a theoretical circumstance.

You're saying that if it happened to you, you'd really be totally cool with the guy?
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Old March 25 2013, 04:24 AM   #34
Vanyel
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
True, but if he had left it as "I don't like shows with story arcs." I'd have left him alone. But he added in he didn't like Sisko, so I had to know why.
I don't know if you're seeing it. Your friend is doing exactly what Sisko did.
Yes I did get it.
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Old March 25 2013, 05:05 AM   #35
Dream
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Sisko was certainly being a jerk to Picard. But I could see the situation from both sides.

It was a huge risk introducing the new leading actor for their next series that way. The writers had balls.
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Old March 25 2013, 06:30 AM   #36
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
If you haven't guessed by now, the reason he doesn't like Sisko and by extension DS9 is because of how Sisko treated Picard in their first meeting on board the Enterprise in Emissary. I should have thought of that because my friend is very much a part of Team Picard
Let me get this straight. Your friend was extremely attached to someone. That person, Picard, was attacked by Sisko's actions. On a single occasion, years and years ago. Under circumstances which have long since been justified to some extent.

And yet your friend won't let it go after all this time, choosing to continue disliking Sisko regardless.

The irony is appalling.

It is not linear.


That's completely hilarious, I hope the OP points it out one day!
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Old March 25 2013, 07:10 AM   #37
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Tosk wrote: View Post
It's easy for us as an audience to say that Sisko was too harsh (I disagree, but whatever) ...but if a man who had suffered brain trauma and was not himself murdered your family, I'd bet real money you'd have an attitude when meeting him three years later after he was healed. If you say you'd be fine with him, I don't believe you.
I don't agree with the analogy. Someone who has brain trauma and is 'not himself' still knows that murder is wrong; the Borg care not whether murder is wrong and Picard had no control over his actions anyway.
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Old March 25 2013, 08:35 AM   #38
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I like DS9 because the characters are flawed. Sisko isn't some confident paragon like Picard. He starts the series a broken man. Kira was a terrorist, Odo helped out during the occupation, Bashir lied to get in to Starfleet and don't get me started on Garak...

The flaws and different facets are what make these characters so much more interesting than Geordi LaForge, Dr. Crusher or Troi.
Flaws are ok, as long as they don't make them unsympathetic. The problem I have with DS9 is that the flaws the characters have make me hard to empathize with them. Bahir's personality was also very grating, and Avery Brooks spoke like a robot. Odo was probably the most likeable character, even though he walked around perpetually annoyed.
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Old March 25 2013, 09:22 AM   #39
Tosk
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Captain McBain wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
It's easy for us as an audience to say that Sisko was too harsh (I disagree, but whatever) ...but if a man who had suffered brain trauma and was not himself murdered your family, I'd bet real money you'd have an attitude when meeting him three years later after he was healed. If you say you'd be fine with him, I don't believe you.
I don't agree with the analogy. Someone who has brain trauma and is 'not himself' still knows that murder is wrong; the Borg care not whether murder is wrong and Picard had no control over his actions anyway.
I made the guy up and I say he didn't know right from wrong.

Anyway, that's not the point of my example...it's not about whether Picard is to blame or not, the point is about Sisko's reaction to him.
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Old March 25 2013, 12:06 PM   #40
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Flaws are ok, as long as they don't make them unsympathetic.
I don't have to feel sympathy for a character to really find them interesting and enjoy watching them. I never felt much empathy for Dukat and he's one of my favourite Trek characters before S7 butchers him.
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Old March 25 2013, 12:38 PM   #41
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
Flaws are ok, as long as they don't make them unsympathetic.
I don't have to feel sympathy for a character to really find them interesting and enjoy watching them. I never felt much empathy for Dukat and he's one of my favourite Trek characters before S7 butchers him.
For protagonists, like Sisko, you should be able to empathize with them. They are, after all, our proxy in the world.

The problem I have is that the main character trait that characters express the most in DS9 (Sisko excepted I guess) is selfishness. Now that's easy to identify with, as most people are selfish almost by default, but I don't find it an appealing trait in a protagonist, which is why I also don't like the JJ Trek characterizations, where Kirk is highly self-centered.
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Old March 25 2013, 01:39 PM   #42
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

The "characters" in Jar Jar Abrams Trek are loud, crudely drawn sketches for an audience that is barely paying attention, that's why they're crappy.

There's nothing wrong with selfish characters or unsympathetic ones. I like characters because they're interesting, not because I'd like to have a beer with them. Harry Kim seems like a really nice guy but he's dull and lifeless. Would rather watch an interesting selfish character like Quark.
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Old March 25 2013, 04:06 PM   #43
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
The "characters" in Jar Jar Abrams Trek are loud, crudely drawn sketches for an audience that is barely paying attention, that's why they're crappy.

There's nothing wrong with selfish characters or unsympathetic ones. I like characters because they're interesting, not because I'd like to have a beer with them. Harry Kim seems like a really nice guy but he's dull and lifeless. Would rather watch an interesting selfish character like Quark.
mos6507 wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
Flaws are ok, as long as they don't make them unsympathetic.
I don't have to feel sympathy for a character to really find them interesting and enjoy watching them. I never felt much empathy for Dukat and he's one of my favourite Trek characters before S7 butchers him.

For protagonists, like Sisko, you should be able to empathize with them. They are, after all, our proxy in the world.

The problem I have is that the main character trait that characters express the most in DS9 (Sisko excepted I guess) is selfishness. Now that's easy to identify with, as most people are selfish almost by default, but I don't find it an appealing trait in a protagonist, which is why I also don't like the JJ Trek characterizations, where Kirk is highly self-centered.
I'm not seeing how selfishness was the main character trait of most of the characters. What we see in DS9 are a number of characters with conflicts of interest that come into play. Kira with the wormhole and the prophets/wormhole aliens, Odo and loyalty to his comrades vs loyalty to the Founders, Quark is usually looking out for Quark, etc., but when push comes to shove they all help and care about each other. One of the most interesting aspects of DS9 is how this group of individuals with obvious flaws learns how to get along and work together instead of against each other. They didn't start out all happy happy joy joy like TNG.
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Old March 25 2013, 06:59 PM   #44
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

I thought it was a great spin, and if it was unsettling, well, it was supposed to be. Up until this point, our Star Trek leads were very "Mary Sue." Everyone is perfect and if they do have a shortcoming it's the kind a perfect person would have like "I just work too hard." To start us off with a Commander with some issues to work through is more compelling that what we'd previously given. That exchange right there is why DS9 > TNG.

If your friend doesn't like it, that's cool. He can always find a new friend, LOL.
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Old March 25 2013, 08:46 PM   #45
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Re: Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

The flaws of the main characters, especially at the start of the show, are one of the big reasons why I've grown to love DS9 so much. Every character, not just Sisko, had some pretty big chips on their shoulders or were out of their element when they first started working on the station. Watching them come together and overcome many of those flaws and turn them into strengths are what make the show so compelling.

Personally, I rate Sisko just as high as Kirk or Picard.

Last edited by EnsignRedshirt; March 25 2013 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Wanted to add one more thought.
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