RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,406
Posts: 5,505,984
Members: 25,127
Currently online: 608
Newest member: OneOfFour

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 24 2013, 04:44 AM   #16
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Yeah, I've pretty much had it with every ST movie needing a evil villain badguy bent on revenge and ensuing space battle climax.
As a Star Trek fan, I would love to see a non-violent drama, an involved mystery story, or even a romantic comedy set on the Enterprise. But no "A -list" movie can play solely to Star Trek fans and exspect to make back it's production costs.

Now if TPTB were willing to make a B-list Star Trek for around 30 or 40 million, we maybe could see a complex storyline Star Trek movie that wasn't devoted to girls in their underwear, space battles, running up and down corridors, and cardboard cutout "villains."

Pavonis wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Please, Cesar Romero was a better Joker than Ledger.
To paraphrase Firefly, "Well, my time of taking you seriously is coming to a middle." Romero better than Ledger? Seriously?
Allow me to rephrase, Cesar Romero was a better ACTOR than Ledger. There now, all better.

Merry Christmas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 04:49 AM   #17
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

V'ger and humanity/time/whale probe were antagonists, but not villains. Sybok was quite sympathetic, not even close to a villain. Chang and Kruge were cool.

As in "Muwahaha, I am out to get you."

SO tired of villains, especially the damned vengeance plot. Great in Kahn. Bad in Nemesis. Just plain old in JJTrek.

My trouble is I don't like action/adventure. Sucks for me I suppose. I don't see any cerebral Trek on the horizon.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 05:21 AM   #18
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Please, Cesar Romero was a better Joker than Ledger.
To paraphrase Firefly, "Well, my time of taking you seriously is coming to a middle." Romero better than Ledger? Seriously?
Allow me to rephrase, Cesar Romero was a better ACTOR than Ledger. There now, all better.

No, not better at all.
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 05:24 AM   #19
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 08:53 AM   #20
Santa Claus
Believe
 
Santa Claus's Avatar
 
Location: J. Allen's Rooftop
Send a message via ICQ to Santa Claus Send a message via AIM to Santa Claus Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Santa Claus Send a message via Yahoo to Santa Claus
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
__________________
---------
"I believe... I believe... It's silly, but I believe." - Susan Walker
---------
❄ A Joyful Holiday Season to You All! ❄

Santa Claus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 12:11 PM   #21
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
Not at all. Romero play a wide variety of characters, Romero is best known as the handsome "Latin lover" (though he was actual gay), he appeared in 120 movies.

Ledger was in something like 18 movies and it was only in the last 3 or 4 that you could say his acting ability was "above average."
Merry Christmas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 01:11 PM   #22
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
Not at all. Romero play a wide variety of characters, Romero is best known as the handsome "Latin lover" (though he was actual gay), he appeared in 120 movies.

Ledger was in something like 18 movies and it was only in the last 3 or 4 that you could say his acting ability was "above average."
Agreed. Ledger was sure on the cusp of something great, but he hadn't quite reached it yet by the time he was gone IMO.

I'm not making a comparison there between Joker actors, just a general observation. A lot of Ledger's work pre-2006/07 was average at best. But he was getting better. I think the biggest tragedy about his death was that every indication shows TDK as being a breakout role for him.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 02:44 PM   #23
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
Not at all. Romero play a wide variety of characters, Romero is best known as the handsome "Latin lover" (though he was actual gay), he appeared in 120 movies.

Ledger was in something like 18 movies and it was only in the last 3 or 4 that you could say his acting ability was "above average."
I've seen Romero in a variety of roles, from Indian servant to tough guy gangster. It still came across as Cesar Romero in a turban or Cesar Romero with a gun.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 03:11 PM   #24
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

There are three objectionable aspects to villains, not just in Star Trek, but any and all movies.

First, basically nobody thinks of themselves as a villain, not even the cool bad ass dudes who revel in kicking ass. The villains who enjoy twitting the heroes with their glorious badness are basically a joke, even if the actor can manage to project menace. (This is especially true if the audience is kind of gullible. It's why Ledger's Joker is not an amazing performance. Remember the Joker instead of Ennis makes a laughingstock of Ledger's life as an actor.) The psychopaths who really don't have any morals don't usually have any sense of humor either, nor are they magically gifted with really cool style. Generally, their life strategies involve mimicking normal people with consciences, not enacting vicarious fantasies about doing what you want.

Second, the notion that making it personal makes it more intense usually fails, because more personal is usually more petty. Worse, the number of ways to make it personal is pretty limited. This means making it personal demands anchoring the plot on a cliche, which is not good.

Third, making the plot about resolution of physical jeopardy is melodrama, not drama. Drama is about choice. A physical jeopardy plot usually ends with a combat, even a hand to hand combat. But this is not more intense, even when the plot doesn't have to be contorted to set up the final confrontation. There isn't much drama in a protagonist choosing to fight to live or save someone, because it's an easy choice to make, however hard it may be to execute. "Does the hero win?" is hardly worth asking yourself.

Unfortunately, you can't escape the fundamental second rateness of the hero vs. villain structure simply by maintaining there are no villains nor heroes, that it's all shades of grey or moral ambiguity. A drama without a point of view is, well, pointless.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 03:50 PM   #25
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

stj wrote: View Post
nobody thinks of themselves as a villain
That doesn't mean they aren't one. A character can be a villain and not realize it, or be in denial about it.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 10:34 PM   #26
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

^^^Yes. I think real life characters like this tend to inflict their rationalizations about how what they're doing isn't wrong or even is necessary for other, higher purposes. Or rehearse the supposed wrongs of their enemies which they are righting or avenging.

Villains with ideological motives in particular would be eager to justify themselves. However, these characters are almost never allowed to have their own point of view. In fact, they very often don't even get to be allowed to state any motive at all. And the scripts almost invariably ascribe a very personal motive. In real life, the only example of such a thing that even remotely approaches this that I know of is Lenin, whose older brother was executed by the Tsar. The scripts don't seem to want the slightest possibility of the viewer misreading the villain as misled rather than baselessly malicious.

And the characters who are supposedly motivated by their grudges are rarely to be found. They certainly are not to be heard reciting their complaints. In fact, the scripts almost invariably merely show the villainous character's envy. The villain rarely makes any charges against the protagonist or even the victim.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.

Last edited by stj; March 24 2013 at 11:44 PM.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2013, 11:42 PM   #27
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Plus in Trek movies they're so "ooh, I'm scaaary." Kahn at least was handsome, but he preened and hissed literally (and was great. Once.). Chang was cool, but all-BA-lookin'. The creepy Borg queen. Salieri gettin' his skin stretched (though I loved the moral ambiguity of that movie). Can't even remember the scary-lookin Picard clone's name, that flick was such a mess. (Vroooom: Duuuune buggies in space! Kewl!) Then Bana all tatted up and oooh-so-scaaaary. (Yet so urban hipster, too: "Hello, Christopher.") Man! These are movies made for children aren't they? I'm so close to skipping the next one.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2013, 12:02 AM   #28
Wintertainment
Fleet Captain
 
Wintertainment's Avatar
 
Location: Avon
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

inklingstar, since when has TMP been critically appreciated?
__________________

Hello to Jason Isaacs!
Wintertainment is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2013, 12:18 AM   #29
Lt. Cheka Wey
Commander
 
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

J. Allen wrote: View Post
To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
Lt. Cheka Wey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2013, 03:16 AM   #30
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
I was hoping for more depth after the last flick and people said not to hope in vain, as JJ was the Transformers guy. I'm not down with loud, smashy movies, but I think I get it.

Even if he were inclined, DS9 had hours of episodes in which to develop deep, nuanced characters (though it got comic-bookish at the end when they got demon-possessed and threw lightning bolts at each other and tumbled into hell. I digress.) A movie has two hours at the most. And it's 2013 summer blockbuster time. Depth doesn't put butts in seats and overpriced, deadly popcorn in mouths.

You hope, and I'll hope too, and maybe JJ'll come through. He says there will be tears. Of course, those lens flares can be hard on the eyes; maybe that's what he meant.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:51 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.