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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 23 2013, 04:32 AM   #31
Gojira
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It was all a pre-programmed mind rape.

Oh Brother. It was an episode where it gave Picard the chance to live a life he missed out on.

Picard may have been a passive recipient of the process but he was no victim.
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Old March 23 2013, 12:28 PM   #32
BillJ
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

Gojira wrote: View Post

Oh Brother. It was an episode where it gave Picard the chance to live a life he missed out on.
People keep saying this but I think it's horseshit. Picard was obviously capable of doing anything he wanted in life. If he had really wanted a family, he would have had one.

He was forced to live out decades in a preprogrammed environment. If that's not considered mind rape I don't know what is.

The Cage wrote:
The customs and history of your race show a unique hatred of captivity. Even when it's pleasant and benevolent, you prefer death.
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Old March 23 2013, 01:22 PM   #33
MikeS
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

Although I have never thought about it this way before, I find myself drawn to BillJ and T'Girl's conclusions about this episode. A guilded cage is still a cage. And Picard was given no indication that he would be able to return to his life on the Enterprise unaffected by his experiences.
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Old March 23 2013, 06:04 PM   #34
Gojira
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

BillJ wrote: View Post
People keep saying this but I think it's horseshit. Picard was obviously capable of doing anything he wanted in life. If he had really wanted a family, he would have had one.
In life we have to weigh our priorities and desires. We can still choose one path and at times have some regrests and questions about a path not taken. TNG explored that scenario with Picard a few times.

He was forced to live out decades in a preprogrammed environment. If that's not considered mind rape I don't know what is.
I am not saying you don't have a point. I think the intent of the writers was to give Picard a positive experience. It just shows how themes like in the pilot episode "The Cage" can be seen from different perspectives.

The writers could have just as easily written the episode from the perspective that Picard felt violated and mind raped. But since that was not the intent of the writers then I really do not see it as an issue.
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Old March 23 2013, 10:52 PM   #35
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

Frankly, I never felt the act was anything but a violation of Picard. Ultimately though, the perspective of the episode is that it is forgivable as the violation is perpetrated by extinct people, & Picard's willingness to let it in & treat it as something of value makes it seem like less of an assault

Although that's pretty much how Stockholm Syndrome works too

Edit: Wow, now that episode takes on a whole new angle for me, Picard suffering Stockholm Syndrome. I don't care what anyone says, that's some smart writing

Last edited by Mojochi; March 23 2013 at 11:08 PM. Reason: final thought
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Old March 24 2013, 12:35 AM   #36
Gojira
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Frankly, I never felt the act was anything but a violation of Picard. Ultimately though, the perspective of the episode is that it is forgivable as the violation is perpetrated by extinct people, & Picard's willingness to let it in & treat it as something of value makes it seem like less of an assault

Although that's pretty much how Stockholm Syndrome works too

Edit: Wow, now that episode takes on a whole new angle for me, Picard suffering Stockholm Syndrome. I don't care what anyone says, that's some smart writing

I do think that point that Picard did not have a say in his mind being probed is a good point that people have brought up. Maybe the writers didn't think about it?

I don't think that episode works if Picard knew it was just a mind meld type of incident. He had to truly become one of these people in order to experience them.

So while it may have been a violation technically, I am willing to give the writers and the people in Picard's experience, some slack because I think it is a moving episode.
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Old March 24 2013, 12:51 AM   #37
Tiberius
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

BillJ wrote: View Post
Gojira wrote: View Post

Oh Brother. It was an episode where it gave Picard the chance to live a life he missed out on.
People keep saying this but I think it's horseshit. Picard was obviously capable of doing anything he wanted in life. If he had really wanted a family, he would have had one.

He was forced to live out decades in a preprogrammed environment. If that's not considered mind rape I don't know what is.
I think you're missing the point.

First of all, it wasn't preprogrammed. The parts were there, but what happened flowed from what Picard did. I doubt there were specific events programmed in, except for the whole"Our sun is dying" thing.

Secondly, it's about how, yes, even though Picard chose his career over a family, the lack of a family is something that still affected him. Just because his career was more important to him doesn't mean that a family was meaningless to him. This episode gives him the chance to not have to worry about his career so he can have that family.
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Old March 24 2013, 07:27 PM   #38
Shawnster
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

MikeS wrote: View Post
Although I have never thought about it this way before, I find myself drawn to BillJ and T'Girl's conclusions about this episode. A guilded cage is still a cage. And Picard was given no indication that he would be able to return to his life on the Enterprise unaffected by his experiences.
But was the program as limited as T'Girl thinks? I disagree. Oh, sure, Picard was stuck in Kataan's version of "The Sims," but that doesn't mean everything was completely fixed. I like to think, based on the examples of Picard calling for the Holodeck exit, etc..., that some things were random. Maybe he would have children, maybe not. Maybe he and his wife would divorce. He just couldn't leave "Simmville."

Did he have to cooperate with the program? Was that even the point of the program? The Kataan people simply wanted someone to remember who they were. As long as "Picard" lived the rest of his life on their planet, he'd remember.

Oh, they did work in the flute. It seems he was predestined to learn the flute.
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Old March 24 2013, 07:49 PM   #39
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

They could've included an instruction manual and allowed people to explore their culture by choice.
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Old March 24 2013, 10:21 PM   #40
Gojira
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

BillJ wrote: View Post
They could've included an instruction manual and allowed people to explore their culture by choice.
That would have created the problem Picard had in the Nexus. Knowing it was not real it took away all meaning of the experience. So for Picard to have a meaningful experience he had to think it was real.

To create a sense of reality choice had to be eliminated
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Old March 29 2013, 05:04 PM   #41
FFunctionalData
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

I wonder how it would have played out if say the probe affected Worf or a Vulcan?
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Old March 29 2013, 07:30 PM   #42
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

I don't think it's mind rape. I mean, it's a little questionable to force someone to have these memories and experiences. But I don't think it's unreasonable to say, "Hey, can you spare 20 minutes of your time to remember our civilization now that we're all dead?" I mean, it's hard to be angry it, when you put it that way.

As for the pointlessness of the scenes that snap back to the Enterprise -- I disagree. Those scenes had a very important role of defusing the suspense in the episode. You can't have your audience going through an episode like this wondering what's going on and if Picard is in danger. They did the same thing in "Far Beyond the Stars" when Sisko had a small vision first and then it flashed back to the station so Bashir could tell us that Sisko's brain is behaving the same way it did the last time he got visions from the Prophets (in "Rapture"). These episodes aren't about rooting for the character to get out of the visions, they're about the audience getting involved the drama of the new reality the character's experiencing.

"Frame of Mind" is a good counter-example. It's about trying to figure out which world is real and getting back to it (and the twist is they're both fantasy). But if "Frame of Mind" was about exploring the dramatic possibilities of madness, you would want to let the audience know what was happening to Riker so they could stop wondering and enjoy the drama.
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Old April 4 2013, 06:56 PM   #43
The Squire of Gothos
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

thesadpanda wrote: View Post
You can't have your audience going through an episode like this wondering what's going on and if Picard is in danger
The danger was all techno babble and just felt annoying, but I agree to a certain extent that there maybe a need to go somewhere other than to have Picard realise that it was a life within a life that he had just experienced.
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Old April 4 2013, 11:59 PM   #44
Mojochi
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

thesadpanda wrote: View Post
But I don't think it's unreasonable to say, "Hey, can you spare 20 minutes of your time to remember our civilization now that we're all dead?" I mean, it's hard to be angry it, when you put it that way.
It's easier, when you put it like this

"Hey, can you spare 20 minutes to let us make you think you've been tossed out of your life, and stranded on a world to live someone else's life, where you have to become one of us to survive, only to grow old & watch the people you'll end up caring about die, or face extinction? Hey... look on the bright side. You'll get to go back with a shattered identity. What do you say? You up to it... Kamin? No? Too effing bad. Should've just fired on our probe"

I'd be surprised if it didn't take him months just to get use to being called Jean-Luc Picard again. I wouldn't call it mind rape. I'd reserve that nomenclature for what Troi went through in "Violations".

Troi got mind raped
Geordi got brainwashed
& Picard got mind fucked

Maybe it's splitting hairs... but that's just my own opinion on how to describe it, but I still think it's a good episode
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Old April 5 2013, 12:06 AM   #45
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Re: Inner Light and other alternate reality episodes

I liked most of TNG's alt reality episodes (Yesterday's Enterprise is probably my favorite, it was an awesome episode) but I did not like The Inner Light. It might just be the most boring TNG episode. Not the worst by far, but the most boring. I just couldn't get into the story, and it was very slow. I've always thought it was one of the more overrated Star Trek episodes.
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