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Old March 24 2013, 04:44 AM   #16
T'Girl
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Yeah, I've pretty much had it with every ST movie needing a evil villain badguy bent on revenge and ensuing space battle climax.
As a Star Trek fan, I would love to see a non-violent drama, an involved mystery story, or even a romantic comedy set on the Enterprise. But no "A -list" movie can play solely to Star Trek fans and exspect to make back it's production costs.

Now if TPTB were willing to make a B-list Star Trek for around 30 or 40 million, we maybe could see a complex storyline Star Trek movie that wasn't devoted to girls in their underwear, space battles, running up and down corridors, and cardboard cutout "villains."

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T'Girl wrote: View Post
Please, Cesar Romero was a better Joker than Ledger.
To paraphrase Firefly, "Well, my time of taking you seriously is coming to a middle." Romero better than Ledger? Seriously?
Allow me to rephrase, Cesar Romero was a better ACTOR than Ledger. There now, all better.

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Old March 24 2013, 04:49 AM   #17
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

V'ger and humanity/time/whale probe were antagonists, but not villains. Sybok was quite sympathetic, not even close to a villain. Chang and Kruge were cool.

As in "Muwahaha, I am out to get you."

SO tired of villains, especially the damned vengeance plot. Great in Kahn. Bad in Nemesis. Just plain old in JJTrek.

My trouble is I don't like action/adventure. Sucks for me I suppose. I don't see any cerebral Trek on the horizon.
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Old March 24 2013, 05:21 AM   #18
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Please, Cesar Romero was a better Joker than Ledger.
To paraphrase Firefly, "Well, my time of taking you seriously is coming to a middle." Romero better than Ledger? Seriously?
Allow me to rephrase, Cesar Romero was a better ACTOR than Ledger. There now, all better.

No, not better at all.
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Old March 24 2013, 05:24 AM   #19
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
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Old March 24 2013, 08:53 AM   #20
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
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Old March 24 2013, 12:11 PM   #21
T'Girl
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
Not at all. Romero play a wide variety of characters, Romero is best known as the handsome "Latin lover" (though he was actual gay), he appeared in 120 movies.

Ledger was in something like 18 movies and it was only in the last 3 or 4 that you could say his acting ability was "above average."
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Old March 24 2013, 01:11 PM   #22
Lance
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
Not at all. Romero play a wide variety of characters, Romero is best known as the handsome "Latin lover" (though he was actual gay), he appeared in 120 movies.

Ledger was in something like 18 movies and it was only in the last 3 or 4 that you could say his acting ability was "above average."
Agreed. Ledger was sure on the cusp of something great, but he hadn't quite reached it yet by the time he was gone IMO.

I'm not making a comparison there between Joker actors, just a general observation. A lot of Ledger's work pre-2006/07 was average at best. But he was getting better. I think the biggest tragedy about his death was that every indication shows TDK as being a breakout role for him.
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Old March 24 2013, 02:44 PM   #23
Nerys Myk
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Doesn't Romero mostly play Cesar Romero?
Not at all. Romero play a wide variety of characters, Romero is best known as the handsome "Latin lover" (though he was actual gay), he appeared in 120 movies.

Ledger was in something like 18 movies and it was only in the last 3 or 4 that you could say his acting ability was "above average."
I've seen Romero in a variety of roles, from Indian servant to tough guy gangster. It still came across as Cesar Romero in a turban or Cesar Romero with a gun.
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Old March 24 2013, 03:11 PM   #24
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

There are three objectionable aspects to villains, not just in Star Trek, but any and all movies.

First, basically nobody thinks of themselves as a villain, not even the cool bad ass dudes who revel in kicking ass. The villains who enjoy twitting the heroes with their glorious badness are basically a joke, even if the actor can manage to project menace. (This is especially true if the audience is kind of gullible. It's why Ledger's Joker is not an amazing performance. Remember the Joker instead of Ennis makes a laughingstock of Ledger's life as an actor.) The psychopaths who really don't have any morals don't usually have any sense of humor either, nor are they magically gifted with really cool style. Generally, their life strategies involve mimicking normal people with consciences, not enacting vicarious fantasies about doing what you want.

Second, the notion that making it personal makes it more intense usually fails, because more personal is usually more petty. Worse, the number of ways to make it personal is pretty limited. This means making it personal demands anchoring the plot on a cliche, which is not good.

Third, making the plot about resolution of physical jeopardy is melodrama, not drama. Drama is about choice. A physical jeopardy plot usually ends with a combat, even a hand to hand combat. But this is not more intense, even when the plot doesn't have to be contorted to set up the final confrontation. There isn't much drama in a protagonist choosing to fight to live or save someone, because it's an easy choice to make, however hard it may be to execute. "Does the hero win?" is hardly worth asking yourself.

Unfortunately, you can't escape the fundamental second rateness of the hero vs. villain structure simply by maintaining there are no villains nor heroes, that it's all shades of grey or moral ambiguity. A drama without a point of view is, well, pointless.
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Old March 24 2013, 03:50 PM   #25
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

stj wrote: View Post
nobody thinks of themselves as a villain
That doesn't mean they aren't one. A character can be a villain and not realize it, or be in denial about it.
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Old March 24 2013, 10:34 PM   #26
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

^^^Yes. I think real life characters like this tend to inflict their rationalizations about how what they're doing isn't wrong or even is necessary for other, higher purposes. Or rehearse the supposed wrongs of their enemies which they are righting or avenging.

Villains with ideological motives in particular would be eager to justify themselves. However, these characters are almost never allowed to have their own point of view. In fact, they very often don't even get to be allowed to state any motive at all. And the scripts almost invariably ascribe a very personal motive. In real life, the only example of such a thing that even remotely approaches this that I know of is Lenin, whose older brother was executed by the Tsar. The scripts don't seem to want the slightest possibility of the viewer misreading the villain as misled rather than baselessly malicious.

And the characters who are supposedly motivated by their grudges are rarely to be found. They certainly are not to be heard reciting their complaints. In fact, the scripts almost invariably merely show the villainous character's envy. The villain rarely makes any charges against the protagonist or even the victim.
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Old March 24 2013, 11:42 PM   #27
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Plus in Trek movies they're so "ooh, I'm scaaary." Kahn at least was handsome, but he preened and hissed literally (and was great. Once.). Chang was cool, but all-BA-lookin'. The creepy Borg queen. Salieri gettin' his skin stretched (though I loved the moral ambiguity of that movie). Can't even remember the scary-lookin Picard clone's name, that flick was such a mess. (Vroooom: Duuuune buggies in space! Kewl!) Then Bana all tatted up and oooh-so-scaaaary. (Yet so urban hipster, too: "Hello, Christopher.") Man! These are movies made for children aren't they? I'm so close to skipping the next one.
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Old March 25 2013, 12:02 AM   #28
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

inklingstar, since when has TMP been critically appreciated?
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Old March 25 2013, 12:18 AM   #29
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

J. Allen wrote: View Post
To me, DS9 had the market cornered on great, nuanced major villains. You had:

Kai Winn, who truly believed she was doing what was right for her people, even as she fed her own vanity.

Gul Dukat, who considered himself a good, though flawed, man, even as he took bajoran prisoners to his bed, and manipulated them to get what he wanted.

The Female Changeling, who had no love at all for the solids, but dearly loved her own people and would do anything to protect them, and even Odo, who was a rebellious child in that regard.
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
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Old March 25 2013, 03:16 AM   #30
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Re: Villains, Always With The Villains

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
I really hope that Harrison will be as complex as a DS9 villain.
I was hoping for more depth after the last flick and people said not to hope in vain, as JJ was the Transformers guy. I'm not down with loud, smashy movies, but I think I get it.

Even if he were inclined, DS9 had hours of episodes in which to develop deep, nuanced characters (though it got comic-bookish at the end when they got demon-possessed and threw lightning bolts at each other and tumbled into hell. I digress.) A movie has two hours at the most. And it's 2013 summer blockbuster time. Depth doesn't put butts in seats and overpriced, deadly popcorn in mouths.

You hope, and I'll hope too, and maybe JJ'll come through. He says there will be tears. Of course, those lens flares can be hard on the eyes; maybe that's what he meant.
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