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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 23 2013, 06:57 AM   #1
WesleysDisciple
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Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

curious any thoughts on if Sacrifice of Angels is an Ex deus machina or not

some argue it is, and obviously so, taht it should have been the brave and valiant actions of our hero's that saved the day, not the sudden intervention of the "Prophet's/Wormhole aliens"

others argue that it was neither arbitrary nor implausible, and I share that belief.

so thoughts.
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Old March 23 2013, 08:09 AM   #2
Dream
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

This topic was recently discussed to death:

Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?
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Old March 23 2013, 12:06 PM   #3
DalekJim
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

It's not really a deus ex machina. We'd seen the Prophets do more extraordinary things than just closing the wormhole.

It was a bit of a copout though, and not the most satisfying way to end one of DS9's greatest storylines.
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Old March 23 2013, 01:13 PM   #4
Dal Rassak
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

I read in the DS9 Companion that the writers didn't intend it that way and apparently got quite cross when a lot of fans took it exactly that way. Writer's intentions aside, I also think that this it how it came across.

In the pilot, where the Prophets are introduced, they specifically do not interfere in the affairs of linear beings; their only desire is to be left largely in peace once they've ascertained that the "invaders" of their home aren't hostile to them. All the more involved Prophet stuff and the whole shebang with Sisko's entire existence being arranged for etc. only got grafted on later as the writers developed this idea; it wasn't in the original concept and to me it never stuck convincingly.

So yes, it made sense that these beings would interfere on Sisko's behalf since they can't afford to have him die, but it annoyed the shit out of me. There should have been a big showdown confrontation between the two main antagonists, a real back-and-forth fight for control of the station.
Instead when it looks like he's going to lose, Sisko can just call on the aid of some god-like beings who conveniently make an entire enemy fleet disappear. Isn't that just nice and dandy for him. No amount of strategy or strength on the part of your opponent can compete with that. Lame and unconvincing.
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Old March 23 2013, 01:49 PM   #5
DS9forever
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

Sisko had to basically plead with the Prophets to intervene, they didn't just decide to help. The actions of the Prophets was also a big part of Sisko's decision to help them in return in "The Reckoning".
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Old March 23 2013, 03:40 PM   #6
Dover
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

Maybe this is just my take on religion in general, but I don't like the idea that keeps growing in later seasons that everything that happens on DS9 is predestined as the will of the Prophets
. What's the point of watching the show if there are all-powerful beings to always get the characters back on track?

I don't mind the Prophets' existence, but I felt like in later seasons I stopped caring as much about the decisions the characters were making, because it seemed like there was too much hand-holding by the Prophets (and the Pah Wraiths, for that matter.)
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Old March 23 2013, 03:57 PM   #7
DalekJim
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

The Prophey/Emissary plotline in Season 7 is unforgivably bad. I have no idea what anybody on the writing team was thinking. Sisko being the Emissary simply because he was the first one to encounter the Prophets and they viewed time as non-linear was perfect. Making him Space Jesus dumbed everything down. Making Dukat the Space Anti-Christ dumbed things even further down.
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Old March 23 2013, 04:05 PM   #8
sonak
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

yes it is. It's actually the rare case of being a LITERAL deus ex machina instead of the metaphorical kind.
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Old March 23 2013, 08:22 PM   #9
-Brett-
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

It fails to meet the definition of Deus Ex Machina. The existance of the Prophets was established six years earlier, as was their residing in the wormhole. They weren't new. Their intervention was not sudden or unexpected. Their absence from the episode would have been stranger and more implausible.
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Old March 23 2013, 11:05 PM   #10
DS9forever
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

Sisko's birth being brought about by the Prophets actually makes more sense than him being the one to discover the wormhole - Jadzia was with him in the runabout and Akorem Laan entered the wormhole two hundred years earlier.
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Old March 25 2013, 07:41 PM   #11
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Sisko being the Emissary simply because he was the first one to encounter the Prophets and they viewed time as non-linear was perfect. Making him Space Jesus dumbed everything down. Making Dukat the Space Anti-Christ dumbed things even further down.
Agreed. I was okay with the whole Emissary thing right up until he was "born of a Virgin Sarah." I have said it before and I will say it again, I think it would have been more impactful had he chosen to leave Starfleet and moved to Bajor after the war to "preach the gospel." It would have showed him willingly accepting Bajor as his destiny instead of it being forced on him.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:28 PM   #12
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

know its been a while but need to say this.

Back to the episode with the poet from centuries ago, who tried to ressurct the D'jarra system.

When the prophet shaped like opaka, tells him "you are of Bajor" it suggests theirs SOMETHING not yet revealed.
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Old June 23 2013, 03:36 PM   #13
Charles Phipps
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
curious any thoughts on if Sacrifice of Angels is an Ex deus machina or not
Well it's an act of gods, which is a bit different.

some argue it is, and obviously so, taht it should have been the brave and valiant actions of our hero's that saved the day, not the sudden intervention of the "Prophet's/Wormhole aliens"
I'd argue that in the face of a situation we rarely see our heroes on television go through the list of things our heroes have encountered. Part of what I enjoyed about Stargate was when they faced a new threat, they'd usually go down the list of people they'd met who had superior technology in order to get help (Asgard or whoever).

Sisko knew the Prophets and asked them for help.

He got it.
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Old June 23 2013, 03:55 PM   #14
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

Honestly, I'm not sure how Our Heroes could possibly have won otherwise.
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Old June 23 2013, 04:07 PM   #15
MacLeod
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Re: Sacrifice of Angels , Ex Deus Machina?

Well we had seen the wormhole aliens affect in passage of ships through the wormhole before, so it wasn't as if they suddenly introduced some new ability. The wormhole aliens had also been in the show since the pilot so it wasn't as if they indroduced something new. So no I don't think it was a Deus Ex Machina.

You could perhaps argue it was a contrived ending but that isn't the same thing as a Dues Ex Machina.
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