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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 22 2013, 05:23 AM   #31
Anwar
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
This sums up my feelings exactly. A savy writer and showrunner knows how to get arround the idiotic ideas or suggestions of of executives.
Ira Behr couldn't when he did the Twilight Zone series for UPN.

The DS9 writers had it WAY easy, and they whine about how it wasn't easier.

The reality is that a BIG part of the problem was also Berman. Ira Behr himself has commented on the absurd arguments that he would get into with Berman over story concepts for DS9 (like Berman fighting him on whether Nog could lose a leg).
Behr's a whiner who doesn't appreciate how things could've been worse.

Berman had no vision and was company man at heart. He did not really care what they put out as long as the execs were happy.
He wanted DS9 to be the only Trek show on at the time and wait until it was done to do VOY. He had the right ideas, but couldn't fight off the Paramount Execs above him.

Neither her nor Braga were all that interested in pushing the envelope. They were just interested in treading water...and that was what ultimately killed Prime Trek.
No they weren't, they're just scapegoats that get singled out for abuse by folks who want scapegoats.
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Old March 22 2013, 05:30 AM   #32
Anwar
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
You're right, we don't. Then again, we don't need to.
Yeah, I think we do.

Braga was no newb when he signed onto Voyager and Enterprise, he knew the culture, conditions and constraints.
Not really. He hadn't done a network show as constrained as VOY was before.

He also re-upped many times. Rather than test boundaries or rock boats (as others had successfully done)
No one successfully did it against UPN.

he opted to play things safe. At every turn he sought to prove he was a "good company man" all the way.

If he had stood up at all back then he would be regarded differently now.
No, I think you'd still think he was a hack who wasn't strong enough to overpower Network execs (which even Ira Behr and Moore couldn't do).

Now, as more time goes by, he just comes across as a guy trying to rewrite history.
No, he's a guy that isn't trapped by contracts and can speak more freely.

Which is less than what TOS had to deal with (26 fifty-minute episodes a season).
TOS was only on for 3 years.

In the context of history and the bigger picture Braga really has no excuse
UPN is a perfect justification.
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Old March 22 2013, 07:37 AM   #33
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Don't forget "Shuttlepod One." Talk about a story that goes nowhere.
It's a character piece. What's wrong with it?
The characters aren't interesting. Malcom and Trip don't do anything except annoy each other and break ranks. It's dull.
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Old March 22 2013, 08:20 AM   #34
davejames
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

To be fair to Braga, I DO think he and his writers came up with some pretty cool and inventive plots for VOY. Before I gave up on the show around the 5th season, I remember there being a lot of really clever scifi ideas and twists in there -- ideas which probably would have made for some excellent episodes of TNG at some earlier point.

The problem was that between the generic and lifeless VOY characters, and the reset button which had completely undercut the credibility of the show long ago, I was just never able to really care about anything that happened. It felt like the writers were just spinning their wheels the whole time, and wasting a bunch of energy on nothing.
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Old March 22 2013, 04:47 PM   #35
The Mirrorball Man
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Don't forget "Shuttlepod One." Talk about a story that goes nowhere.
It's a character piece. What's wrong with it?
The characters aren't interesting. Malcom and Trip don't do anything except annoy each other and break ranks. It's dull.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's Enterprise, right?
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Old March 22 2013, 05:10 PM   #36
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

Dream wrote: View Post
VOY and ENT were definitely huge falls from the heights of TNG and DS9. Having to answer to the networks wasn't a good thing at all.
The difference is one of those shows eventually found its footing (making its premature cancellation that much more cruel! )
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Old March 22 2013, 09:01 PM   #37
Danger Ace
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

t_smitts wrote: View Post
The difference is one of those shows eventually found its footing (making its premature cancellation that much more cruel! )
Any series' that takes 3-4 seasons to "find its footing" has been on way too long, and, by definition, couldn't be "cancelled prematurely." I am no fan of shows getting axed after 1 or 2 episodes, BUT if a series' can't find itself or an audience in 1 or 2 seasons then it needs to go.

Personally, I gave "Enterprise" a season and a half before I stopped watching. Now, I heard from many folks that it started to right itself in its fourth season, but so what? No one can say that ST: ENT wasn't give a fair shot.

The problem, pure and simple, was everyone took Star Trek for granted. They ALL figured if they put something, anything, out there that was set in the Trekverse that all the "trekkies" would go for it in a big way. Even the actors spoke of there association with Enterprise as a windfall which would bring them financial independence.

What surprised them was that the slim majority of Trekkers were discerning and had standards causing them to quickly turn their backs on the lackluster effort known as Enterprise. Sadly, however, there are more than few die-hard fanatics who would watch a dog taking a dump in a forrest every week if you labelled it "Star Trek." The slow leeching Braga & Berman started with Voyager turned into a full blown hemorrhage with Enterprise. And when it was diagnosed as terminal B&B just shrugged their shoulders and walked away. Poor Manny Cotto was left to make the funeral arrangements.
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Old March 22 2013, 09:16 PM   #38
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Don't forget "Shuttlepod One." Talk about a story that goes nowhere.
It's a character piece. What's wrong with it?
Stinky
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Old March 22 2013, 09:30 PM   #39
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
Heh. DS9 wasn't "third" in the ratings...
Behind TOS and TNG? Yes, yes it was.
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Old March 22 2013, 09:51 PM   #40
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
Heh. DS9 wasn't "third" in the ratings...
Behind TOS and TNG? Yes, yes it was.
In raw numbers, yes. However, DS9 was the number 1 space-station based sci-fi series in syndication during its run.
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Old March 23 2013, 04:47 AM   #41
Anwar
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
Heh. DS9 wasn't "third" in the ratings...
Behind TOS and TNG? Yes, yes it was.
In raw numbers, yes. However, DS9 was the number 1 space-station based sci-fi series in syndication during its run.
Kind of a small reference pool, to be honest...
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Old March 23 2013, 06:24 AM   #42
Danger Ace
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

Anwar wrote: View Post
Kind of a small reference pool, to be honest...
It is a pool as big and limitless as the imagination.
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Old March 23 2013, 06:53 AM   #43
dub
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
Heh. DS9 wasn't "third" in the ratings...
Behind TOS and TNG? Yes, yes it was.
Behind TNG, certainly. But TOS? I'd love to see the actual ratings numbers for the original run of TOS, even if they're not as detailed as today's numbers. I've seen the chart comparing the ratings of the spin-offs, but no actual numbers for TOS other than recent re-runs. Are they available somewhere?
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Old March 23 2013, 07:36 PM   #44
Danger Ace
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

dub wrote: View Post
Behind TNG, certainly. But TOS? I'd love to see the actual ratings numbers for the original run of TOS, even if they're not as detailed as today's numbers. I've seen the chart comparing the ratings of the spin-offs, but no actual numbers for TOS other than recent re-runs. Are they available somewhere?
I'm sure someone will correct me if I am substantially wrong, but I think it got somewhere around 27 million viewers or so. Remember most folks only got the Big 3 networks (if that) so the national ratings pie was only sliced 3 ways).

"Inside Star Trek: The real Story" by Herb Solow & Robert Justman gives the info. It is a great read with a lot insight into the production of TOS. From the initial pitch to cancellation. It also gives a more balanced perspective of NBC, Desilu and Roddenberry. Very enlightening. Highly recommend.
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Old March 24 2013, 12:52 AM   #45
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Brannon Braga on DS9

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
DeepSpaceWine wrote: View Post
Heh. DS9 wasn't "third" in the ratings...
Behind TOS and TNG? Yes, yes it was.
In raw numbers, yes. However, DS9 was the number 1 space-station based sci-fi series in syndication during its run.
You might as well also throw in "the most successful series employing a left-handed Key Grip named Roy" - which is to say, if you define your criteria narrowly enough, you can declare anything "most successful."

Hell, DS9 wasn't even the third most successful syndicated TV series during most of its run.

dub wrote: View Post
Behind TNG, certainly. But TOS? I'd love to see the actual ratings numbers for the original run of TOS, even if they're not as detailed as today's numbers.
Yep. TOS failed on NBC with at least twice as many viewers as TNG succeeded with in syndication.
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