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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 22 2013, 04:01 PM   #31
sonak
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I think TUC ignored TFF more than WoK ignored TMP. Wheras nothing in TMP contradicted by WoK, putting TFF and TUC together does leave you with some head scratchers...

-Kirk is suddenly a Klingon-hater, despite showing no particular animosity toward them in V. His hated is explicitly stated to stem from David's death in III.

-Scotty/Uhura is never mentioned.

-The Enterprise-A looks less advanced, particularly the bridge which has sprouted lots of push buttons, had the carpet torn out and most of the lights turned off. Engineering also looks totally different.


TUC also sits awkwardly next to "Yesterday's Enterprise" which explicitly states and shows that Klingon/Federation peace only came about after the heroic death of the Enterprise-C. One can fudge that the peace broke down after VI and YE saved it, but that's rather unsatisfying (not to mention implausible, since the Klingons were crippled by the Praxis explosion). They're more like two different versions of how the Federation and Klingons made peace.

Internet reviewer SFdebris, in his reviews of the TOS films, says that it actually makes more sense from a logical perspective if you go straight from TVH to TUC, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Still, I don't think TFF should be discarded from continuity-there's some good exploration of the Big Three that would be tossed out with it.

As for YE and TUC-Yes, yes, yes! I've often observed that as well. They don't mesh together very well. TUC makes it seem like they're on their way to peace, and then in YE we find out that two generations later, not only are they not at peace, but by that point, the Klingons are actually STRONGER than the Federation.
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Old March 22 2013, 05:20 PM   #32
Lance
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

The error there, if any, is in TUC. YE predates it, so its version of Klingon peace should take precedence.

But then, YE has got its own contradictions. Why is the 1701-C engaging the Romulans in battle, when it was outright stated in earlier TNG episodes that Starfleet hasn't had contact with them for a looooooong time?
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Old March 22 2013, 05:30 PM   #33
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

My opinion is that Spock is the bridge between TMP and Khan. His characterization seems to continue where TMP left off. His sacrifice at the end of Khan is kind of the finishing off of the epiphany he had in TMP, about logic not being the be-all-end-all and that friendship (the hand-holding scene in TMP) was more important. There isn't as much of a setup for Spock's transition in Khan alone, merely the Kobayashi Maru theme. But in Spock's very first appearance, he is altogether friendly, offering Kirk a gift, where Kirk is troubled. This may be a trick of the imagination, but when you play both films back-to-back, that is what flows between them.

In other respects, it feels like a do-over, by taking Kirk and putting him back behind a desk, and then reusing the dry dock footage. If Kirk really wanted the Enterprise so much, then certainly he had to have spent some time commanding her again and not been so keen to take another desk-job. So there had to be far more of an interim between the two than the chronological time between the release of the films.
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Old March 22 2013, 05:32 PM   #34
sonak
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Lance wrote: View Post
The error there, if any, is in TUC. YE predates it, so its version of Klingon peace should take precedence.

But then, YE has got its own contradictions. Why is the 1701-C engaging the Romulans in battle, when it was outright stated in earlier TNG episodes that Starfleet hasn't had contact with them for a looooooong time?

quite right-my post made it seem like YE contradicted TUC, when it actually came out first. Still, the two stories don't gell very well alongside each other.
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Old March 22 2013, 07:29 PM   #35
JarodRussell
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

I just watched these two films back to back again to make sure. It's about 5-10 minutes. Switching DVDs and a bathroom break.
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Old March 22 2013, 07:42 PM   #36
Timo
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Minor hiccups:

TWoK: 2283 (the bottle of Romulan Ale)
-15 = 2268 for "Space Seed"
But the year on the bottle must be different from the year TWoK takes place; that's the only possible reason Kirk would express amazement and perhaps apprehension at seeing the year on the label.

VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended.
But TMP says no such thing. It only says Kirk has been desk-bound for 2.5 years, and the only reference to the 5YM is that Kirk considers it a unique qualification of his for confronting the threat of the week. So it would seem that most Starfleet skippers never do 5YMs, which means they do something else, which means Kirk may well have been doing something else for X years between 2270 and TMP.

No Starfleet higher-up would force Admiral Kirk, as someone above suggested, to give up command for some supposedly nobler purpose.
To the contrary, Starfleet could easily flat out refuse to let Kirk the Savior to ever set foot out of a padded and shielded display case, uh, office, again. John Glenn was refused further spaceflights, and so was Yuri Gagarin...

If Generations is to be believed, he left Starfleet a few years later (again, fed up with the desk job) and retired to his family home in Iowa where he tried to settle down with a lady named Antonia.
...Or was thinking of retiring, but never got around to it.

Why is the 1701-C engaging the Romulans in battle, when it was outright stated in earlier TNG episodes that Starfleet hasn't had contact with them for a looooooong time?
This was stated in one episode, "The Neutral Zone" - after previous episodes such as "Angel One" had established ongoing contact with the Romulans!

The contact established in those was of the "warships confront each other" type, the same as in the "Yesterday's Enterprise" backstory. Presumably, that doesn't count as the sort of "direct contact" discussed in "TNZ", but comes under the heading of "indirect contact".

The overall feeling I get is that the movies steer clear of each other to such a degree that they never really manage to contradict each other - unlike the episodes.

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Old March 22 2013, 07:42 PM   #37
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Jarod, I can shorten that to about Two-point-five minutes as I have both on my iPad and I can just hit the bathroom and grab a fresh soda.

lol Seriously, I have always figured there was at least 8-10 years subjective time between TMP and WoK
There had to be at least enough time for what is known as "The Second Five-Year Mission" (featuring the Movie Refit Enterprise and the soft uniforms
after that I estimate about One or two years of happenstance missions before Starfleet decided to retire the pastel uniforms and go on to something a tad more militaristic, turn the Enterprise into an academy training vessel and giving Kirk and Spock teaching missions on Earth.
ad to that the Five to Seven years from Space Seed to The Motion Picture, and you have the Fifteen Year Fill-in.

as to Final Frontier and Undiscovered Country I'm hesitant to have TFF be immediately after TVH due to the radical redesign of the Bridge. Particularly as it applies to the Placement of the Turbolifts For one thing, the exterior of the 1701-A doesn't look any different but the interior of the Bridge is at least twice as wide as it's predecessor in TMP-TVH
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Old March 22 2013, 10:09 PM   #38
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Timo wrote: View Post
Starfleet could easily flat out refuse to let Kirk the Savior to ever set foot out of a padded and shielded display case, uh, office, again. John Glenn was refused further spaceflights, and so was Yuri Gagarin...
But neither Glenn (who did return to space, in 1998) nor Gagarin were Defenders of All Life on Earth - a function Kirk could not perform other than on a spaceship.

As soon as the decision was made to finally visit present-day Earth in TMP, the default plot for further movies became Threat to Earth; not only TMP but the fourth, eighth, and tenth movies (as well as the Abrams movie) had this plot. Naturally, this implies Kirk (or Picard) Must Stop Threat to Earth.
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Old March 22 2013, 10:23 PM   #39
Amasov
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I just watched these two films back to back again to make sure. It's about 5-10 minutes. Switching DVDs and a bathroom break.
^ This

Shorter if you have digital copies.

But TMP says no such thing. It only says Kirk has been desk-bound for 2.5 years, and the only reference to the 5YM is that Kirk considers it a unique qualification of his for confronting the threat of the week. So it would seem that most Starfleet skippers never do 5YMs, which means they do something else, which means Kirk may well have been doing something else for X years between 2270 and TMP.
But when Kirk says he's been desk-bound for two and a half years, does that actually mean that's when the original five year mission ended?

sonak wrote: View Post
I would actually think it would be one of the most commonly explored periods in Trek, considering that it's mysterious, and there seems to have been at least another five-year mission in that time period somewhere.
It's almost as if the Phase II series DID happen in that time, if you count TMP serving as the pilot as originally-intended. Then TWOK serves as the first film in the series.

doubleohfive wrote: View Post

I've seen prints where it's just "STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN." Too, there's promotional artwork and images that did not have the "II" yet.
Wow. I have NEVER seen that before. Are there any pictures online?

Last edited by Amasov; March 22 2013 at 10:42 PM.
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Old March 22 2013, 11:56 PM   #40
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

I've always felt (and I'm not sure if anyone involved has even given their thoughts on the relationship between the two films beyond a general dislike for the first one and the need to do better) that there wasn't an intentional effort to wipe out/ret con TMP when they made Khan as such. At least not in the sense of that episode of Voyager which is supposed to contain dialouge that is specifically there to say "Threshold never happened".

I think everyone was pretty unhappy with the first film (though the paying punter can more than disagree) and just decided to ignore and do their own thing for the sequel. Which might sound the same as deliberately overriding it but there's a subtle difference in that Bennett and Meyer just did what they thought was best, if it fitted in with the first film fine, if it contradicted it, fine. But either way they weren't that bothered and likely didn't notice because Paramount were unlikely to be encouraging them to use TMP as a reference point (again, fairly or not).

To a certain extent, there was no need to out and out officially retcon the first film whatever the studio thought of it because we're just before the breakout of home video. Any slight discontinuity between the two films wouldn't be a problem for most of the audience because it would have been nearly three years since any but the dedicated fans would have seen the first film and the memory gets hazy.

That's a get out clause not really available anymore (and Trek wasn't the only film series to use it, the Planet of the Apes movies for example tweak the details of their future history with the absurdity most of the viewers won't remember the exact details as well), so you get things like the last Rocky film being released with Official Statements some of the previous sequels didn't count because there was more than a good chance the people going to see it had the DVD set on their shelves and would have even the bad movies much fresher in their minds.

Whatever the actual thinking, I do think it's actually a pleasent surprise (at least for us anal fans) the two films fit together as well as they do. You may have to squint a bit and use some lube but things could have been a lot worse considering the attitude towards TMP at Paramount at the time.
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Old March 23 2013, 12:09 AM   #41
doubleohfive
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Amasov wrote: View Post

doubleohfive wrote: View Post

I've seen prints where it's just "STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN." Too, there's promotional artwork and images that did not have the "II" yet.
Wow. I have NEVER seen that before. Are there any pictures online?












More importantly: here's the thread from five years ago when IndySolo and I went to see TWOK in 70mm, where he confirms that no, there was no "II" in the title at the beginning:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=77733
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Old March 23 2013, 02:19 AM   #42
Amasov
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Thanks, doubleoh. That's pretty awesome. I seriously never knew that the "II" was ever omitted at anytime. And here I am calling myself a "superfan".

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Old March 23 2013, 03:11 AM   #43
Greg Cox
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
The Empire Strikes Back didn't have a "II" in its title, either. Except before anyone knew what it was going to be called, no one called it Star Wars II, and once it came out, no one called it Star Wars V, or even Star Wars Episode V. It was always The Empire Strikes Back or just Empire for short.

A decade earlier, there was no Planet of the Apes II, either. The Ape sequel was called Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

James Bond II? No. From Russia with Love.

And so forth.

At that time, there was no hard-and-fast rule that sequels had to have "II" or "2" in the title. I don't think you can make anything out of not having it, except that they chose not to put it there. They might have just thought it sounded classier without it; it does, by the way.

Yeah, the whole Roman numeral thing is a relatively recent convention, Hollywood-wise. Back in the day, sequels had titles, not numbers: Bride of Frankenstein, Tarzan Finds a Son, Sherlock Holmes and the Voice of Terror, Return of the Thin Man, Topper Takes a Trip, Godzilla versus the Smog Monster, Taste the Blood of Dracula, etc.

I suspect it was the Godfather movies that started the trend of numbering sequels, possibly because it seemed classier.
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Old March 23 2013, 03:18 AM   #44
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
gottacook wrote: View Post
The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.
Something like this unused novel cover, in other words?

Where did that image come from? It cannot be more than four or five years old.
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Old March 23 2013, 05:18 AM   #45
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Wasn't too long ago - it was the original German cover for Jerry Oltion's 1997 novel Mudd In Your Eye. Apparently Cross Cult was told they couldn't use Mudd on the cover (something about likeness issues) and couldn't use that particular Enterprise design either. So they 'borrowed' Vektor's instead.

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