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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 21 2013, 11:23 PM   #16
sonak
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Borjis wrote: View Post
I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??
Several. Lists in this thread here.

I would actually think it would be one of the most commonly explored periods in Trek, considering that it's mysterious, and there seems to have been at least another five-year mission in that time period somewhere.
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Old March 21 2013, 11:45 PM   #17
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Interesting article on TWOK and Space Seed on io9 the other day: http://io9.com/inside-secrets-of-the...h-of-457250013


Amasov wrote: View Post
The fact that "II" is in the title is a clear indicator that it's at least acknowledging that it's the second movie. Whether this adds anything or not, I used to have a Leonard Maltin film guide where he reviewed, what seemed like, every movie in existence up to that point -- in this case, the one I had was from 1998. On his Star Trek II review, he mentions the film was released as "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan."

That's not true, is it? Was the "II" ever omitted at any point? I've seen the original trailers, posters, and TV spots and not once did I ever not see the "II" in there.

I wasn't born yet when the film was released, so.
I've seen prints where it's just "STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN." Too, there's promotional artwork and images that did not have the "II" yet.
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Old March 22 2013, 12:51 AM   #18
C.E. Evans
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

sonak wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
Borjis wrote: View Post
I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??
Several. Lists in this thread here.

I would actually think it would be one of the most commonly explored periods in Trek, considering that it's mysterious, and there seems to have been at least another five-year mission in that time period somewhere.
It's not that popular an era among writers and editors, IMO. Most prefer to tell stories during the timeframe of the TV series.
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Old March 22 2013, 01:43 AM   #19
gottacook
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

All this "speculation" (if one can use that term to refer to possible unknown actions of fictional characters) about the activities and motivations of Kirk pre-TWoK is useless. Occam's razor, people. The most parsimonious solution is that TWoK did indeed "overwrite" TMP (as someone upthread put it) - and, moreover, that Paramount at first supported this, hence avoiding the use of II not only in the original release prints but in the pre-release publicity and the cover of the tie-in novel, but then chickened out for marketing reasons and retroactively called the film II in later release prints and home video, as well as in ads and posters upon release.

(Oddly, there is one detail that doesn't fit: The novel does squeeze in a few peripheral references to TMP, none of which are necessary to the story. Of course the novel also has Spock's coffin burning up as it enters the Genesis planet's atmosphere...)
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Old March 22 2013, 02:42 AM   #20
sonak
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

gottacook wrote: View Post
All this "speculation" (if one can use that term to refer to possible unknown actions of fictional characters) about the activities and motivations of Kirk pre-TWoK is useless. Occam's razor, people. The most parsimonious solution is that TWoK did indeed "overwrite" TMP (as someone upthread put it) - and, moreover, that Paramount at first supported this, hence avoiding the use of II not only in the original release prints but in the pre-release publicity and the cover of the tie-in novel, but then chickened out for marketing reasons and retroactively called the film II in later release prints and home video, as well as in ads and posters upon release.

(Oddly, there is one detail that doesn't fit: The novel does squeeze in a few peripheral references to TMP, none of which are necessary to the story. Of course the novel also has Spock's coffin burning up as it enters the Genesis planet's atmosphere...)

er, but ignoring something doesn't mean overwriting it. Also, two changes from TMP seem to affect TWOK- Spock's epiphany at the end of TMP seems intended to be the reason for the more comfortable and at-ease Spock in TWOK, also Kirk's still an admiral.

The Undiscovered Country doesn't acknowledge anything about TFF, but that doesn't mean that we were supposed to regard that as meaning that TFF never happened.(despite what some might wish to think)
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Old March 22 2013, 03:10 AM   #21
Amasov
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

I've been a Trek fan since the age of 3. I'm 28 now. I thought I knew almost everything, but this is seriously the first time that I've heard the postulation that STII "overwrites" STI. I really never knew some looked at it that way.
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Old March 22 2013, 03:54 AM   #22
Nightowl1701
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

gottacook wrote: View Post
The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.
Something like this unused novel cover, in other words?

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Old March 22 2013, 04:17 AM   #23
gottacook
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

sonak wrote: View Post
er, but ignoring something doesn't mean overwriting it. Also, two changes from TMP seem to affect TWOK- Spock's epiphany at the end of TMP seems intended to be the reason for the more comfortable and at-ease Spock in TWOK, also Kirk's still an admiral.

The Undiscovered Country doesn't acknowledge anything about TFF, but that doesn't mean that we were supposed to regard that as meaning that TFF never happened.(despite what some might wish to think)
Not everyone agrees that Spock in TWoK is really that much more "comfortable"; Pauline Kael in her New Yorker review, for example, refers to "Nimoy's ashen Spock." As for Kirk being an admiral, there's no reason that the "overwrite" (if it happened) couldn't also have featured Admiral Kirk - it's not as though he became an admiral during the Earth scenes in TMP.

As for the last point, TUC not referring to TFF is just like one episode of the series not referring to the preceding one - nothing unusual. This isn't a parallel case to TMP/TWoK, though, because (just as in any episode) in TFF and TUC Kirk begins and ends in command of the Enterprise, whereas in both TMP and TWoK Kirk begins at a desk job and assumes command (and doesn't relinquish it at the end).

All efforts to deal with Kirk's in-between years (if there were any) have to begin with the question of why he would have relinquished command at the end of TMP. But there's no reason for him to have done so, except perhaps in Trek novels about this period. He and his crew have just saved all life on Earth. No Starfleet higher-up would force Admiral Kirk, as someone above suggested, to give up command for some supposedly nobler purpose. Command of a starship is indeed Kirk's "first, best destiny" (per Spock's line in TWoK) and Spock isn't the only one to recognize it.

In this context the "overwrite" hypothesis makes perfect sense.
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Old March 22 2013, 05:30 AM   #24
Nightowl1701
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

My take on the 'in-between' years:

From all indications, Kirk went willingly back into the Admiralty after the post-TMP five-year-mission. He would have been about 45 at that point, and (given his 'game for the young' line in TWOK) may have been burned out and simply decided "I'm getting too old for this shit."

If Generations is to be believed, he left Starfleet a few years later (again, fed up with the desk job) and retired to his family home in Iowa where he tried to settle down with a lady named Antonia. But for whatever reason (Spock/McCoy's prodding?), he couldn't go through with it and returned to Starfleet a year or so before TWOK, where he got the Academy job. (I think Spock was already there with the Enterprise as a training ship, as he would have no taste for active command.) The Academy was probably Kirk's condition for coming back - "I'd rather be a schoolteacher than a bureaucrat." And Starfleet, as gottacook mentioned, would hardly be in a position to refuse him and just be glad to have him back in any capacity.

The way Spock and McCoy had to talk him into taking command, it's clear Kirk wasn't harboring any secret desire to get back in the chair - he simply didn't think he had it in him anymore. Maybe the 2'nd FYM wasn't as successful as the first (hence why no writers seem to want to cover it), or he suffered one Edith/Miramanee-style tragedy too many. Or, again, he was simply burned out.
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Old March 22 2013, 09:05 AM   #25
C.E. Evans
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

sonak wrote: View Post
gottacook wrote: View Post
All this "speculation" (if one can use that term to refer to possible unknown actions of fictional characters) about the activities and motivations of Kirk pre-TWoK is useless. Occam's razor, people. The most parsimonious solution is that TWoK did indeed "overwrite" TMP (as someone upthread put it) - and, moreover, that Paramount at first supported this, hence avoiding the use of II not only in the original release prints but in the pre-release publicity and the cover of the tie-in novel, but then chickened out for marketing reasons and retroactively called the film II in later release prints and home video, as well as in ads and posters upon release.

(Oddly, there is one detail that doesn't fit: The novel does squeeze in a few peripheral references to TMP, none of which are necessary to the story. Of course the novel also has Spock's coffin burning up as it enters the Genesis planet's atmosphere...)

er, but ignoring something doesn't mean overwriting it. Also, two changes from TMP seem to affect TWOK- Spock's epiphany at the end of TMP seems intended to be the reason for the more comfortable and at-ease Spock in TWOK, also Kirk's still an admiral.

The Undiscovered Country doesn't acknowledge anything about TFF, but that doesn't mean that we were supposed to regard that as meaning that TFF never happened.(despite what some might wish to think)
Agreed on all points.
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Old March 22 2013, 09:49 AM   #26
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

TWOK was more indiscriminate than just trying to pretend on some level that TMP never happened. TWOK blew right into TOS and bulldozed anything that stood in its way. It put Chekov aboard ship during Space Seed and inserted yet another serious love interest into Kirk's past with a crowbar, just for starters.

TWOK, even more than TMP (with its valiant but ultimately futile attempt to retcon Klingon appearance), tried to unburden itself of the continuity porn that would eventually sink the Prime Universe part of the franchise.

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
I've seen prints where it's just "STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN." Too, there's promotional artwork and images that did not have the "II" yet.
I was in high school when TWOK was released. Originally, there was no "II" in the title. That was added in a later release, and everybody noticed. It's wrong to say it was originally "omitted" (ETA: not directed at 00, someone else said that). It was simply absent.
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Old March 22 2013, 10:25 AM   #27
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

I think TUC ignored TFF more than WoK ignored TMP. Wheras nothing in TMP contradicted by WoK, putting TFF and TUC together does leave you with some head scratchers...

-Kirk is suddenly a Klingon-hater, despite showing no particular animosity toward them in V. His hated is explicitly stated to stem from David's death in III.

-Scotty/Uhura is never mentioned.

-The Enterprise-A looks less advanced, particularly the bridge which has sprouted lots of push buttons, had the carpet torn out and most of the lights turned off. Engineering also looks totally different.


TUC also sits awkwardly next to "Yesterday's Enterprise" which explicitly states and shows that Klingon/Federation peace only came about after the heroic death of the Enterprise-C. One can fudge that the peace broke down after VI and YE saved it, but that's rather unsatisfying (not to mention implausible, since the Klingons were crippled by the Praxis explosion). They're more like two different versions of how the Federation and Klingons made peace.
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Old March 22 2013, 11:31 AM   #28
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Amasov wrote: View Post
I've been a Trek fan since the age of 3. I'm 28 now. I thought I knew almost everything, but this is seriously the first time that I've heard the postulation that STII "overwrites" STI. I really never knew some looked at it that way.
I'm paraphrasing, but ISTR somebody who was on the production saying they asked Nick Meyer at the time how they were going to explain the uniforms being different. Meyer's response was, allegedly, "We don't. The first movie doesn't exist."

(I don't think there was ever anything malicious in that statement, nor that anybody involved was seriously trying to "overwrite" the first movie, despite the fact that TWOK obviously originally went out without a "II" in the title. But I do think it's an indication that to those who mattered, ie. the directors and producers, TMP was irrelevant. Certainly despite it's box office success the executive level at Paramount seemed to look at TMP as being an embarrassment.)
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Old March 22 2013, 01:03 PM   #29
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Originally, there was no "II" in the title. That was added in a later release, and everybody noticed. It's wrong to say it was originally "omitted". It was simply absent.
An astute point. It's possible, however, that someone who saw the post-release advertising and the posters just outside the theater (all of which would have used the "II") and then saw a "II"-less title on the big screen, synchronized with the first grand statement of Mr. Horner's main theme - well, such a person might think in terms of "omitted."

(As I've mentioned in some old thread: I recall seeing a four-page color spread in one of the Time Inc. magazines just before the movie opened in May 1982 - probably Time or People - that featured art and photos from the movie and definitely did not use the "II".)
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Old March 22 2013, 01:11 PM   #30
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

The Empire Strikes Back didn't have a "II" in its title, either. Except before anyone knew what it was going to be called, no one called it Star Wars II, and once it came out, no one called it Star Wars V, or even Star Wars Episode V. It was always The Empire Strikes Back or just Empire for short.

A decade earlier, there was no Planet of the Apes II, either. The Ape sequel was called Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

James Bond II? No. From Russia with Love.

And so forth.

At that time, there was no hard-and-fast rule that sequels had to have "II" or "2" in the title. I don't think you can make anything out of not having it, except that they chose not to put it there. They might have just thought it sounded classier without it; it does, by the way.
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