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Old March 21 2013, 12:00 AM   #181
sonak
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

yousirname wrote: View Post
I'm not seeing why a few layabouts would 'ruin everything'. Any more than a small number of welfare-dependent lazyboneses 'ruins everything' today.

I'm not trying to imply that everyone on welfare, even on long-term welfare, is lazy or undeserving of it or what-have-you. I suspect only a very small minority are - lazy people do exist, after all, and where there is a system there will be people who try to exploit that system. The existence of that small minority doesn't even undermine the welfare system, never mind society as a whole, is what I'm saying.

that's probably true. They'd get a decent level of support in terms of welfare anyway, and there'd probably be social ostracism toward those who genuinely refused, out of laziness to contribute in any way. It wouldn't "ruin the system."
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Old March 21 2013, 10:30 AM   #182
T'Girl
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

yousirname wrote: View Post
The existence of that small minority doesn't even undermine the welfare system, never mind society as a whole, is what I'm saying.
It would depend on what kind of system you want, or intend to have. A relatively wealthy system could extend charity to members who (for example) are physically or mentally incapable of providing for themselves. But it does in a way "ruin" the system when you have others who are generally healthy, but who milk from the system simply because they've found a way to do so. It undermines the intent of the system, as it was established. It's a form of fraud.

What you're removing from the system could be better employed elsewhere. Or not be put into the system in the first place, there by reducing the burden upon the general population.

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Old March 21 2013, 01:19 PM   #183
yousirname
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
But it does in a way "ruin" the system when you have others who are generally healthy, but who milk from the system simply because they've found a way to do so. It undermines the intent of the system, as it was established. It's a form of fraud.
It's sub-optimal, which I wouldn't call 'ruining'. Neither fraudulent insurance claims nor denials of legitimate claims 'ruin' the insurance industry, for example. Neither is desirable, but their existence doesn't condemn the industry as a whole.
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Old March 21 2013, 01:39 PM   #184
hux
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

But the reason it doesn't spoil it (today) is because people who work are rewarded by being able to access more (and better) food, clothing, shelter, opportunities, vacations, material possessions, standards of living

so while i work and see others not working (and it may bug me a little) the fact is, i gain significantly more by working than they do from not working

now fast forward to the federation utopia and we have a big difference because the people that don't want to work now have access to exactly the same standard of living as me so suddenly i'm looking at all these people having sex all day, drinking replicated champagne, travelling the globe having adventures, doing what ever they want with life and so i'm left wondering....why the fuck am i slogging my guts out all day when not slogging my guts out all day would result in exactly the same standard of living

i just don't see how you can get past that basic problem
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Old March 21 2013, 01:56 PM   #185
yousirname
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

hux wrote: View Post
now fast forward to the federation utopia and we have a big difference because the people that don't want to work now have access to exactly the same standard of living as me so suddenly i'm looking at all these people having sex all day, drinking replicated champagne, travelling the globe having adventures, doing what ever they want with life and so i'm left wondering....why the fuck am i slogging my guts out all day when not slogging my guts out all day would result in exactly the same standard of living

i just don't see how you can get past that basic problem
Define 'standard of living'. You won't starve to death and you won't end up sleeping on the streets. But will you get invited to parties? Will people come if you invite them? Will anyone have sex with you all day, or will you want to have sex with those who will?

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to completely slack off. But I can see a host of potential reasons why you wouldn't want to.
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Old March 21 2013, 02:32 PM   #186
Star Wolf
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

yousirname wrote: View Post
hux wrote: View Post
now fast forward to the federation utopia and we have a big difference because the people that don't want to work now have access to exactly the same standard of living as me so suddenly i'm looking at all these people having sex all day, drinking replicated champagne, travelling the globe having adventures, doing what ever they want with life and so i'm left wondering....why the fuck am i slogging my guts out all day when not slogging my guts out all day would result in exactly the same standard of living

i just don't see how you can get past that basic problem
Define 'standard of living'. You won't starve to death and you won't end up sleeping on the streets. But will you get invited to parties? Will people come if you invite them? Will anyone have sex with you all day, or will you want to have sex with those who will?

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to completely slack off. But I can see a host of potential reasons why you wouldn't want to.
So in Trek terms Captain Kirk worked so hard to be Captain so Orions would invite him to parties with green party favors, who were actually in charge . But if he settled for being a Lieutenant he would be in the holodeck having sex with a computer generated Uhura
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Old March 21 2013, 03:50 PM   #187
sonak
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Star Wolf wrote: View Post
yousirname wrote: View Post
hux wrote: View Post
now fast forward to the federation utopia and we have a big difference because the people that don't want to work now have access to exactly the same standard of living as me so suddenly i'm looking at all these people having sex all day, drinking replicated champagne, travelling the globe having adventures, doing what ever they want with life and so i'm left wondering....why the fuck am i slogging my guts out all day when not slogging my guts out all day would result in exactly the same standard of living

i just don't see how you can get past that basic problem
Define 'standard of living'. You won't starve to death and you won't end up sleeping on the streets. But will you get invited to parties? Will people come if you invite them? Will anyone have sex with you all day, or will you want to have sex with those who will?

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to completely slack off. But I can see a host of potential reasons why you wouldn't want to.
So in Trek terms Captain Kirk worked so hard to be Captain so Orions would invite him to parties with green party favors, who were actually in charge . But if he settled for being a Lieutenant he would be in the holodeck having sex with a computer generated Uhura

essentially yes-in a future where basic needs are provided for, social status based around what you do or what you accomplish will take over for wealth as the marker of success.

sure there'll be the few who won't care and will just sit around on a holodeck and eating junk food, but I don't think the consequences of that kind of choice will be very appealing to many.

Also, again, the culture will be different-the importance of "making a contribution to society" will be promoted to people from the time they're children.
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Old March 21 2013, 05:03 PM   #188
hux
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

yousirname wrote: View Post
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to completely slack off. But I can see a host of potential reasons why you wouldn't want to.
i'm using extreme slacker examples here......so lets put it another way, does Picard's brother make wine because he enjoys it or because he needs to make profit or to trade......obviously the former......then you turn up one day and tell him that we need someone to clean star ships and do some hoovering.....you honestly believe he's gonna say yes, ok i have a civic duty and will comply.......sorry no, i just don't accept it as a remotely realistic possibility.....he enjoys making wine and living on his farm (private property in the future?!) and has absolutely no reason to give that up to do something he doesn't want to do

we've established that not all menial work is automated and we've established that no one has any real imperative to do that menial work voluntarily so my underlying point is.....this is clearly a flaw in the...."money doesn't exist theory"

sonak wrote: View Post
sure there'll be the few who won't care and will just sit around on a holodeck and eating junk food, but I don't think the consequences of that kind of choice will be very appealing to many. .
again, the example of sexing it up and being a layabout was an extreme example to hammer the point home but it's turned into a bit of a red herring.......if i lived in that society for example, i would probably be very pro-active, motivated and interested in doing worthwhile things with my life such as studying something or exploring space or being an architect or whatever.....the point is, if i can be architect (even a bad one who doesn't get commissioned much but it doesn't matter because i have no bills to pay or material concerns) then why would i agree to clean your ship.....unless there is something in it for me

and no matter how many times people tell me that we'd all be much nicer, more responsible and have a greater sense of civic duty in the future, sorry, i just don't accept that as a convincing explanation
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Old March 21 2013, 08:50 PM   #189
sonak
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

hux wrote: View Post
yousirname wrote: View Post
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to completely slack off. But I can see a host of potential reasons why you wouldn't want to.
i'm using extreme slacker examples here......so lets put it another way, does Picard's brother make wine because he enjoys it or because he needs to make profit or to trade......obviously the former......then you turn up one day and tell him that we need someone to clean star ships and do some hoovering.....you honestly believe he's gonna say yes, ok i have a civic duty and will comply.......sorry no, i just don't accept it as a remotely realistic possibility.....he enjoys making wine and living on his farm (private property in the future?!) and has absolutely no reason to give that up to do something he doesn't want to do

we've established that not all menial work is automated and we've established that no one has any real imperative to do that menial work voluntarily so my underlying point is.....this is clearly a flaw in the...."money doesn't exist theory"

sonak wrote: View Post
sure there'll be the few who won't care and will just sit around on a holodeck and eating junk food, but I don't think the consequences of that kind of choice will be very appealing to many. .
again, the example of sexing it up and being a layabout was an extreme example to hammer the point home but it's turned into a bit of a red herring.......if i lived in that society for example, i would probably be very pro-active, motivated and interested in doing worthwhile things with my life such as studying something or exploring space or being an architect or whatever.....the point is, if i can be architect (even a bad one who doesn't get commissioned much but it doesn't matter because i have no bills to pay or material concerns) then why would i agree to clean your ship.....unless there is something in it for me

and no matter how many times people tell me that we'd all be much nicer, more responsible and have a greater sense of civic duty in the future, sorry, i just don't accept that as a convincing explanation

well, maybe there'll only be a small percentage of the population who'll feel that way and it won't matter. I tend to think that people will be nicer and more cooperative once the struggle for basic needs that defines so much of our time in society is no longer a factor. Imagine what a change in society that would be.

And worse case scenario, they impose a small, symbolic punishment(no access to holodecks or something) to those who don't participate in the "crappy job rotation" or whatever. I don't see it as a big deal.
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Old March 21 2013, 09:08 PM   #190
Chrisisall
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

sonak wrote: View Post
essentially yes-in a future where basic needs are provided for, social status based around what you do or what you accomplish will take over for wealth as the marker of success.
This is the most interesting thread I've come across in a long time.

And my Son says, "If you take away the requirement to stomp on others to make your living, what else is left to do except be a good person in the community?"
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Old March 21 2013, 11:01 PM   #191
sonak
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Chrisisall wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
essentially yes-in a future where basic needs are provided for, social status based around what you do or what you accomplish will take over for wealth as the marker of success.
This is the most interesting thread I've come across in a long time.

And my Son says, "If you take away the requirement to stomp on others to make your living, what else is left to do except be a good person in the community?"

your son is a wise and eloquent person.
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Old March 22 2013, 01:00 AM   #192
Chrisisall
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

sonak wrote: View Post
your son is a wise and eloquent person.
I will pass that along to him, thanks. At fourteen being the big Trek fan that he is, I only hope that he can see the fruits of this way of thinking in a concrete manner in his future world here on Earth. With nearly seven billion here now, and the subsequent globalization of world finance & levelling out of the standard of living, Capitalism must become another tool in our future's toolbox, not the gospel of the masses handed down by the rich and old, who will not be around for the Eugenics Wars and Khan's forcible removal from power.
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Old March 22 2013, 04:58 AM   #193
yousirname
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

hux wrote: View Post
we've established that not all menial work is automated and we've established that no one has any real imperative to do that menial work voluntarily so my underlying point is.....this is clearly a flaw in the...."money doesn't exist theory"
I don't think we have established that not all menial work is automated. We've seen people do what, peel potatoes, wash dishes? There are alternative explanations for that (again, given that we already have dishwashers in the here and now).

And you're not addressing the social pressures that may be in place. It's fine for you to say for the sake of argument that you personally wouldn't mind becoming what amounts to a pariah, but you can't plausibly universalise that.

and no matter how many times people tell me that we'd all be much nicer, more responsible and have a greater sense of civic duty in the future, sorry, i just don't accept that as a convincing explanation
(Shrug) it's canon. I don't accept some matter-antimatter reaction chamber whosis as a convincing explanation for the ability to accelerate past lightspeed, but I'm not about to spend effort convincing myself they don't actually do that in the show.
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Old March 25 2013, 10:50 PM   #194
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Hux, I wonder if this is what you're hoping for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3I-teuk_B8

Imagine in 20-30 years where this tech will be. But as Sonak mentioned, a new or different social conscience might emerge due to these technological advancements. Let's hope it is a benign one.

"In New Babylon, all useful yet repetitive activity underwent automation; and technology, mobilized at the mass level, would release people from the daily drudge of necessity, guaranteeing a healthy dose of free time. There'd be big institutional transformations, too, like collective ownership of land and the means of production, together with the rationalization of the manufacturing of consumer goods, making scarcity old hat." Guy Debord by Andy Merrifield
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Old March 25 2013, 11:56 PM   #195
Chrisisall
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post

"In New Babylon, all useful yet repetitive activity underwent automation; and technology, mobilized at the mass level, would release people from the daily drudge of necessity, guaranteeing a healthy dose of free time. There'd be big institutional transformations, too, like collective ownership of land and the means of production, together with the rationalization of the manufacturing of consumer goods, making scarcity old hat."
Oh my Buddha, let's hope so.
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