RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,342
Posts: 5,502,321
Members: 25,118
Currently online: 706
Newest member: Ashanti

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11

Frakes: Sign Me Up!
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 21 2013, 05:36 PM   #1
JirinPanthosa
Rear Admiral
 
Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

It seems like every time in Star Trek when a protagonist ship is outgunned, they can always rely on flying really close to a sun and creating some kind of crazy science to blow them up. Or there are variations like flying into planet's atmospheres and your ship can survive and theirs can't.

We've seen this strategy be effective in Arsenal of Freedom, Redemption, Descent, and at least a few times in DS9. Also Scientific Method in Voyager kind of counts. Why hasn't anyone caught on to this? These enemies never seem to think twice about following an inferior ship into a dangerous situation.

I guess Star Trek does lean heavily on enemy stupidity as plot device.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 06:09 PM   #2
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

It's like a starship version of dogfighting with aircraft. You know what your vehicle can do, and have some idea of what the enemy vehicle can do. So you try and go where your enemy can't; they follow because they want to kill you and might think that their ship will last longer than yours.
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 06:14 PM   #3
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Or there are variations like flying into planet's atmospheres and your ship can survive and theirs can't ... Arsenal of Freedom
Laforge's method of destroying the alien "gun ship" was dependant on a bit of stupidity.

The Gun ship could have easily paced the Enterprise at a higher altitude, remaining in vacuum, while the Enterprise plowed through the atmostphere. This would have also presented the gun ship with the best firing aspect on the Enterprise, from directly above.

(Be kind of hard to miss)

Merry Christmas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 06:32 PM   #4
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

That automated gun-ship was in "demonstration mode", though. It might have been a selling point that it could operate in atmospheres, so it was showing off.
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 07:00 PM   #5
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Because suns are big and shiny? Oooh, shiny...


T'Girl wrote: View Post
Laforge's method of destroying the alien "gun ship" was dependant on a bit of stupidity.

The Gun ship could have easily paced the Enterprise at a higher altitude, remaining in vacuum, while the Enterprise plowed through the atmostphere. This would have also presented the gun ship with the best firing aspect on the Enterprise, from directly above.

(Be kind of hard to miss)
Except that one thing the atmospheres of inhabited planets do very well -- without which none of us would be here -- is absorbing or scattering radiation. Although the writers of TV and movies tend to overlook it, air is made of stuff. If there's a large enough quantity of that stuff between you and whatever's shooting energy at you, then that stuff is going to absorb most of the energy. Sure, Trek's given us plenty of episodes where a ship fires phasers from orbit and destroys something on the ground, because TV writers don't understand science. But even if you assume that phasers are tuned to some frequency window that lets them avoid absorption by the atmosphere, that doesn't mean that every kind of weapon could do the same.

So if the probe didn't have the right kind of weapons, then the deeper the ship got in the atmosphere, the better shielded it would be from the probe's weapons. Which would give the probe a reason to pursue it and stay close enough for the weapons to retain their full effect.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 08:35 PM   #6
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Sure, Trek's given us plenty of episodes where a ship fires phasers from orbit and destroys something on the ground, because TV writers don't understand science.
That's not really fair. There's nothing wrong with phasers being strong enough to reach targets through a couple of hundred kilometers of air as such - it's just a question of numbers. And we know when the numbers get too big for phasers: in "Extreme Risk", the phasers of the Voyager could no longer destroy the compromising probe when there was 10,000 km of air between it and the ship.

Pursuing the E-D into the atmosphere was nevertheless a satisfying twist, because it brings a bit of realism to the ability of a teeny weeny device to threaten a giant starship. Phasers seem to benefit greatly from being used at point blank ranges even across vacuum; one might deduce that they rapidly lose power over distance, regardless of the medium (although having a medium might still make things even worse), and a tiny assailant would need to make the most of the advantage provided by reduced range.

As for the general method of "fighting in a burning house", it should really only work against really obsessed pursuers who are out of options themselves and cannot wait for your demise outside the burning house. Some of the Trek examples qualify, others do not. And players like the Borg are just plain nuts anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 09:26 PM   #7
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
It's like a starship version of dogfighting with aircraft.
Did any TREK episode ever use that overworked trope of slamming on the retros and watching the enemy fly right past?
__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 11:05 PM   #8
SchwEnt
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Yeah, I see it similar to dogfighting aircraft, when they take the fight down to the deck (low to the ground).

Or taking the fight thru canyons or asteroids or mountain passes or The Badlands.

It's making use of available terrain or conditions to gain advantage over an opponent. Not unheard of, both in fiction and real-life.
SchwEnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 11:42 PM   #9
teacake
Fleet Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Google's ass cave full of the lush, lush asses they have stolen.
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

I have laughed my head off at the title of this thread.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 21 2013, 11:50 PM   #10
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Metryq wrote: View Post
Did any TREK episode ever use that overworked trope of slamming on the retros and watching the enemy fly right past?
I'm sure I've seen instances of ships dropping to impulse to fall behind ships at warp, but I'm not sure whether they were onscreen or in books or comics.

(See also the Jim Rockford maneuver of pulling into a parking lot, letting the pursuing car go past, then turning around and heading in the other direction. Or his trademark Rockford turn -- shift into reverse, drive straight back past the pursuers, then do a 180-degree spin while still moving and end up going forward without slowing down.)
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2013, 12:26 AM   #11
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Christopher wrote: View Post
the Jim Rockford maneuver
That's when Sulu added a "suicide knob" to the helm—and the real reason we have leap years. The Enterprise ended up deeper into our past while aiming for 1968 in "Assignment Earth." During the correction maneuver, Sulu side-stepped the clutch and "left rubber" on the continuum. Chekov thought it was cool, but Kirk wasn't amused.
__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2013, 01:01 AM   #12
ZapBrannigan
Fleet Captain
 
ZapBrannigan's Avatar
 
Location: New York State
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

You're out of hand, Metryq.
ZapBrannigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2013, 11:35 AM   #13
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Did any TREK episode ever use that overworked trope of slamming on the retros and watching the enemy fly right past?
No episode, no - but ST:NEM has Shinzon do a sudden stop and fire at the six of his Romulan counterpart in the fight at Bassen Rift.

So not really "overworking" yet, but one does wonder why this should help. Why is the six of a Romulan warbird more vulnerable than her twelve? The Romulans in the fight did not appear to use weapons that would only be capable of firing forward, nor was there dialogue to indicate that the rear shields of the warbird would be down. All we heard was that Donatra concentrated her ship's offensive power to her forward disruptors because she thought the Scimitar was too wounded to maneuver out of the way, but such diverting of resources only took seconds and could have been undone equally fast.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2013, 02:32 PM   #14
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

I gotta tell you that the Picard Maneuver wasn't quite as interesting as the writers hoped.
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2013, 08:06 PM   #15
Garrovick
Commander
 
Garrovick's Avatar
 
Location: wallowing in a pool of emotion
Re: Luring people into suns -- why does it work so much?

Christopher wrote: View Post
(See also the Jim Rockford maneuver of pulling into a parking lot, letting the pursuing car go past, then turning around and heading in the other direction. Or his trademark Rockford turn -- shift into reverse, drive straight back past the pursuers, then do a 180-degree spin while still moving and end up going forward without slowing down.)
The Rockford Files was awesome.

I sometimes wonder - the space-based weapon in The Arsenal of Freedom didn't disappear when Picard agreed to buy the system like the ground-based one did - I assume this is because of some type of damage to the machine which leads to the space module not getting the message to shut down. Presumably, when the Drake arrived at the planet, a similar sequence of events started as what happened to the Enterprise when it arrived - a ground-based weapon wiped out the Drake's landing party and a space module took out the ship. Let's suppose that the first weapon sent against the Drake was "stupid" similar to the first weapon that was destroyed by Yar - it just stood there and fired. Then the Echo Papa sent out a second space weapon, this time armed with a cloak, which was sufficient to overwhelm and destroy the Drake.

Said space module then never shut down and was hanging around in orbit to attack the Enterprise when it arrived (maybe in some kind of dormant state explaining why it didn't attack right away as soon as the E entered orbit). Let's say that, after La Forge's idea of suckering it into the planet's atmosphere worked and it was destroyed, if Picard had not been able to shut off the Echo Papa, would it have sent another weapon after the Enterprise, this one smart enough not to enter the atmosphere?
Garrovick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.