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Old March 21 2013, 02:12 AM   #16
Set Harth
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan and Yoda cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties. Even the ultimately ill-fated padawan who attacked the clones fared better than Jedi with decades of training / experience.
But the ultimately ill-fated padawan was ultimately ill-fated, only killing a few clones in the end. How do you know that the Jedi with decades of training/experience generally fared any worse? We didn't get to see most of the combat in the temple, which was attacked by thousands of troops according to the film. It's a question of overwhelming numbers. And outside the temple, we did happen to see several Jedi, one with decades of training/experience, another with centuries of training/experience, quote, "cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties". So the evidence you need to show Zett Jukassa doing better than Jedi Masters just isn't there, while we do see specific Jedi Masters doing better than Zett Jukassa.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
All we have are fan excuses of Kenobi being tired after the fall/leap, which was never implied on screen.
We also have a fanmade Youtube clip expressing the point that if Obi-Wan had used Force Speed in that instance he could easily have gone right into the pit.
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Old March 21 2013, 03:37 AM   #17
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

And even across that energy field, couldn't Obi-Wan have messed with Maul? Given him a Force wedgie or something? Or even a push into the pit? Or maybe slashed at the walls, thus possibly disabling the field? Slashing at the walls is a good trick...

As for TCW, I seem to remember a S2 "Die Hard in the Senate Building" finale, in which a main source of tension is Anakin being shot at, yet having no weapon to defend himself with. Not explained is why he doesn't Force-accio one of the baddies' guns.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just the one wondering why an international coalition of wizards, backed up by throngs of Brits, don't storm the Ministry of Magic the moment Voldy openly takes over.
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Old March 21 2013, 12:53 PM   #18
DarthTom
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

[QUOTE=TREK_GOD_1;7826281]
DarthTom wrote: View Post
The difference here is that a machine--engines--are easily subject to breakdowns, repairs no longer working, updates going through paces before functioning properly. Jedi are not machines--their power is as much a part of their makeup as their organs, so the use of this power by trained individuals should not suffer from highs and lows, forgotten skills, etc.
I understand what your saying but for example in Star Trek how could they forget they have transporter arm bands as a way to exit an emergency situation in one episode but 2 later not bring them?

I could provide you many other examples in Trek where an engineering plot device is used only forgotten about. In Wars Jedi strength is no different.
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Old March 21 2013, 01:15 PM   #19
Set Harth
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Gaith wrote: View Post
I seem to remember a S2 "Die Hard in the Senate Building" finale, in which a main source of tension is Anakin being shot at, yet having no weapon to defend himself with.
Should have just used his hand, like in TESB.
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Old March 21 2013, 05:43 PM   #20
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
How do you know that the Jedi with decades of training/experience generally fared any worse?
I know based on the filmed evidence: Mundi barely deflected a few bolts before falling. Secura tured around, acted clueless (as if waiting for a cue to fall...) and died without lifting a finger. Zett-- a mere child--presented the greater, more effective response than two Jedi with decades of training over the boy. Not consistent at all.

We didn't get to see most of the combat in the temple, which was attacked by thousands of troops according to the film. It's a question of overwhelming numbers. And outside the temple, we did happen to see several Jedi, one with decades of training/experience, another with centuries of training/experience, quote, "cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties".
Again, a lack of consistency: adult Jedi are assumed to have reached the end of their training--a certain level of basic proficiency in using the Force, so there's no excuse for the clearly adult temple Jedi to fall like mannequins, while other adult Jedi...and a padawan had better results, despite the child eventually falling.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
All we have are fan excuses of Kenobi being tired after the fall/leap, which was never implied on screen.
We also have a fanmade Youtube clip expressing the point that if Obi-Wan had used Force Speed in that instance he could easily have gone right into the pit.
This is Star Wars, not a Three Stooges short. Jedi are displayed as having precise control over their physical actions, so the thought of Kenobi not being able to stop himself before reaching the pit is just silly. The failure to use Jedi speed was the result of a bad plot device that only added more fuel to the charges of inconsistency.
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Old March 21 2013, 10:37 PM   #21
EnsignRicky
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

I like how Ahsoka and Ventress took down around a dozen or so Clones, all the while making light banter.

That scene alone explains perfectly how they could have easily survived Order 66.
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Old March 21 2013, 11:12 PM   #22
Set Harth
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
I know based on the filmed evidence: Mundi barely deflected a few bolts before falling. Secura tured around, acted clueless (as if waiting for a cue to fall...) and died without lifting a finger. Zett-- a mere child--presented the greater, more effective response than two Jedi with decades of training over the boy. Not consistent at all.
Only when you carefully remove the Order 66 surprise factor which gets in the way of the argument. Jukassa wasn't marching into battle with a bunch of clones he trusted at his back. He knew from the moment of his on-screen appearance that they were enemies, just as Obi-Wan and Yoda did when they went to the temple.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Again, a lack of consistency: adult Jedi are assumed to have reached the end of their training--a certain level of basic proficiency in using the Force, so there's no excuse for the clearly adult temple Jedi to fall like mannequins
The adult Jedi inside the temple "fell like mannequins"? You didn't see any such thing. Besides, even in the event that Obi-Wan and Yoda's greater than average skill is somehow unable to be taken into consideration, when it comes to the temple there is still the surprise factor of Order 66 to consider, not to mention the fact that Obi-Wan and Yoda were facing a smaller number of clones.
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Old March 22 2013, 02:00 AM   #23
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Only when you carefully remove the Order 66 surprise factor which gets in the way of the argument.
Hardly. Yoda was also subject to this surprise, but he survived. Before you say he was tipped off by sensing the death of other Jedi, that same power should have applied to some of the other Jedi as well (since they did not all die at the same moment, and would have felt the disturbance), but it did not. Once again, another inconsistency.

Jukassa wasn't marching into battle with a bunch of clones he trusted at his back. He knew from the moment of his on-screen appearance that they were enemies, just as Obi-Wan and Yoda did when they went to the temple.
Soooo, this suggests the temple Jedi were the most clueless gang in the universe if they watched an army of clones enter the temple, (not to mention Anakin launching his own attack), and still none were able to successfully defend themselves or survive? Every Jedi in the temple? Really?



The adult Jedi inside the temple "fell like mannequins"? You didn't see any such thing.
Yeah, sure, because at 1:22 into the film, Jedi are not doing much other than falling like a mannequin. Trained Jedi--and they were not all younglings, either.

Besides, even in the event that Obi-Wan and Yoda's greater than average skill is somehow unable to be taken into consideration, when it comes to the temple there is still the surprise factor of Order 66 to consider, not to mention the fact that Obi-Wan and Yoda were facing a smaller number of clones.
A fair count comes away with 17 - 20 active clones in that scene. That's not small by any measure.

Then, there's the Jedi speed inconsistency again. Face it: George Lucas just tossed crap into the plot when it suited him, no matter the obvious problems.
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Old March 22 2013, 02:52 PM   #24
Set Harth
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Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Hardly. Yoda was also subject to this surprise, but he survived. Before you say he was tipped off by sensing the death of other Jedi, that same power should have applied to some of the other Jedi as well (since they did not all die at the same moment, and would have felt the disturbance), but it did not. Once again, another inconsistency.
It's cute how you keep predicting my responses by noting the obvious problems with your own position, but really, I don't need the help. You're conveniently leaving out the following facts: Yoda is over 800 years old and thus has more years of Force experience than literally anyone else we know of in the entire saga, and Yoda also is implied to have the second-highest midichlorian count on record, second only to the Chosen One. Because of these facts his possibly greater sensing is no inconsistency at all. You also seem to ignore the fact that for whatever reason Yoda was faced with all of two clones.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
and still none were able to successfully defend themselves or survive? Every Jedi in the temple? Really?
You're still acting as if you watched all the adult Jedi in the temple face the clones. You did not. It's all in your imagination. And once again, though you ignored it the last time: overwhelming numbers. By your logic, any group is summarily dubbed "clueless" if a large enough force is used against it, and thus the charge becomes meaningless. ( Also, it's possible that some may have escaped the temple, and as far as I know this may be detailed in the EU somewhere. )

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Yeah, sure, because at 1:22 into the film, Jedi are not doing much other than falling like a mannequin. Trained Jedi--and they were not all younglings, either.
No middle ground between youngling and master, eh? Since you seem to know things about what went on in the temple that even George Lucas doesn't know, and somehow got a closer look than the rest of the audience, tell me about these Jedi, plural, you see "falling like a mannequin". I suppose the Jedi in question must be veteran Jedi Masters, as opposed to padawans, right? And how do you know that these Jedi didn't kill a fair number of clones before dying? You're only seeing a few seconds of a longer incident. Number of clones killed is still the benchmark, right? Or has it been shitcanned in favor of "because the Jedi didn't survive, they're all punks"? Because by that measurement Jukassa did no better than anyone else.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
A fair count comes away with 17 - 20 active clones in that scene. That's not small by any measure.
When compared against several thousand? I'm afraid it is. ( And I think you're adding about 5 clones to your fair count, but whatever. )
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Last edited by Set Harth; March 22 2013 at 03:04 PM.
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