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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old March 20 2013, 01:23 AM   #46
Cutter John
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

I try not to get too working up about issues like this. Back in the 70's the showrunners just weren't as diligent about continuity as they are nowadays.

Re The Masters skepticism: I can see the time Lords being able to hand out new regeneration cycles, but doing so is a serious breach of ethics. The Master was simply doubtful the the oh-so-pure High Council would violate the rules that way.

Re Pre Hartnell Doctors: Perhaps the Doctor had a previous identity, but as punishment, or thee need to hide who he really was, he was given a new regen cycle and his memory of his old life erased. Might actually go a ways toward explaining all the Cartmel stuff.


Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Looks like some people need to pay better attention next time they read Lungbarrow.
I've read it three times.
Maybe I should read the thing. It must be a hell of a story if people are still quoting it and bitching when the show contradicts it after all these years.
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Old March 20 2013, 01:53 AM   #47
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Cutter John wrote: View Post
Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Looks like some people need to pay better attention next time they read Lungbarrow.
I've read it three times.
Maybe I should read the thing. It must be a hell of a story if people are still quoting it and bitching when the show contradicts it after all these years.
Yea, good luck with that, I've searched for it a few times. Out of Print, and people want $100 for their used copy. This is one I'd like to see get a reprint as I've never had the opportunity to read it myself

Or even make an Audiobook/Audio Play would be fantastic
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Old March 20 2013, 02:29 AM   #48
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Cutter John wrote: View Post
Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post

I've read it three times.
Maybe I should read the thing. It must be a hell of a story if people are still quoting it and bitching when the show contradicts it after all these years.
Yea, good luck with that, I've searched for it a few times. Out of Print, and people want $100 for their used copy. This is one I'd like to see get a reprint as I've never had the opportunity to read it myself

Or even make an Audiobook/Audio Play would be fantastic
It was available as a free eBook from the BBC website for awhile but those seem to have vanished.
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Old March 20 2013, 02:43 AM   #49
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

^Yeah, that's where I read it.
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Old March 20 2013, 03:37 AM   #50
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
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Then again, to complicate things further, I should probably also mention this:
http://www.eyespider.freeserve.co.uk...tes.html#birth
Couldn't those be Morbius' previous selves?

In any case, if the 'Other' is acceptable as canon, then Hartnell is still the first, in a very real sense.
Since the Doctor won the psychic battle I felt it was obvious that those other faces were Morbius. It was a classic example of the hero starting out losing a fight then turning tables to win.
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Old March 20 2013, 04:21 AM   #51
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Davros wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post
Then again, to complicate things further, I should probably also mention this:
http://www.eyespider.freeserve.co.uk...tes.html#birth
Couldn't those be Morbius' previous selves?

In any case, if the 'Other' is acceptable as canon, then Hartnell is still the first, in a very real sense.
Since the Doctor won the psychic battle I felt it was obvious that those other faces were Morbius. It was a classic example of the hero starting out losing a fight then turning tables to win.
For me, what makes it obvious that those faces are meant to be the Doctor's is that when those faces are being displayed Morbius is
  1. Winning
  2. Saying “How far back, Doctor? How long have you lived? Your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius. Back, back to your beginning…”
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Old March 20 2013, 04:27 AM   #52
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

^ It's far from obvious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y8uNMPJfwQ

When the "mysterious" faces begin flashing, Morbius is ranting that the Doctor is losing. It's not very clear as transmitted why the Doctor wins when he does, though.
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Old March 20 2013, 04:39 AM   #53
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
^ It's far from obvious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y8uNMPJfwQ

When the "mysterious" faces begin flashing, Morbius is ranting that the Doctor is losing. It's not very clear as transmitted why the Doctor wins when he does, though.
It's very clear, I thought: Morbius loses because the stress of the game causes a 'fuse' to blow in the artificial head housing his brain, and that was the Doctor's plan in challenging him to a mind-duel the Doctor couldn't hope to win in the first place, as set up by some earlier lines about how crude the artificial braincase is, and the dangers of it overloading*.
Watch the episode cold, without importing any other continuity (apart from the fact that Time Lords change their faces occasionally) and there's no way to interpret the scene except that the appearance of the Doctor's earlier faces shows he's losing, and that the faces seen after Hartnell are pre-Hartnell Doctors.
Anything else is retconning to try to reconcile the scene with the rest of continuity. Like we do.

*Edit: Here's the lines, at least as Terrance included them in the book (without checking the DVD I can't be sure he didn't add them to clear things up):
"Solon, you spoke once of constructing an artificial brain case."
"I abandoned that project long ago. There were problems... formidable problems. There was a build-up of static electricity withing the cranial cavity. At times of stress it could have earthed through the brain, upsetting the delicate equilibrium, disturbing the neural centres."
Then, after Morbius has ordered Solon to find and use it, "Oh, it wouldn't do, Morbius. There could be severe pain, seizures, perhaps even madness..."
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Old March 20 2013, 09:02 AM   #54
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Yes, the point is that morbius DOES NOT LOSE. He wins the battle, but his plastic head blows a fuse in the process and destroys his mind - a pyrrhic victory indeed. The Doctor is left in a catatonic state and almost certain to die, but for the Sisterhood giving up the last of the Elixir to save him. It's all there in the story, later retcons be damned.
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Old March 20 2013, 08:38 PM   #55
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

I will play...

So I counted 8 faces before Hartnell, so Tom Baker would have been #12 and then Davidson #13, that scenario fits in with #5's regeneration. "Might Regenerate, I don't know..feels different this time." So he thought it should be the end of his life and did not know if he would regenerate. Perhaps he got an extended life span somewhere along the line and did not really know LOL Also explains some of instabilty of 6 being the first of a new life cycle.
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Old March 20 2013, 09:32 PM   #56
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Tom wrote: View Post
I will play...

So I counted 8 faces before Hartnell, so Tom Baker would have been #12 and then Davidson #13, that scenario fits in with #5's regeneration. "Might Regenerate, I don't know..feels different this time." So he thought it should be the end of his life and did not know if he would regenerate. Perhaps he got an extended life span somewhere along the line and did not really know LOL Also explains some of instabilty of 6 being the first of a new life cycle.
Trouble is, in Mawdryn Undead Five made it plain he had regenerations left because he was considering giving them all up.
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Old March 20 2013, 09:58 PM   #57
Tom
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Starkers wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
I will play...

So I counted 8 faces before Hartnell, so Tom Baker would have been #12 and then Davidson #13, that scenario fits in with #5's regeneration. "Might Regenerate, I don't know..feels different this time." So he thought it should be the end of his life and did not know if he would regenerate. Perhaps he got an extended life span somewhere along the line and did not really know LOL Also explains some of instabilty of 6 being the first of a new life cycle.
Trouble is, in Mawdryn Undead Five made it plain he had regenerations left because he was considering giving them all up.
Yes, that and the Five Doctors at the time really cemented in that 5 was really 5. Still fun to flirt with the idea though lol
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Old March 20 2013, 10:12 PM   #58
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Well, I think that line derives from the fact that the fifth Doctor might expect to regenerate in any normal circumstance, but he isn't sure if spectrox poisoning is something he can recover from - but otherwise, he thinks he's got eight more regenerations left to him. BUT we, the viewer, can infer an extra layer of meaning in it based on our secret knowledge that there were eight Doctors before Hartnell, which indeed makes Davison the thirteenth, and so there's a whole extra meaning in why it "feels different this time".

It's brilliant. It all fits. We can have our cake and eat it.
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Old March 20 2013, 11:10 PM   #59
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post
Well, I think that line derives from the fact that the fifth Doctor might expect to regenerate in any normal circumstance, but he isn't sure if spectrox poisoning is something he can recover from - but otherwise, he thinks he's got eight more regenerations left to him.
Exactly. It's a mistake to think that regeneration is always a guaranteed out from death. It won't work if the damage is too great, so there's usually a risk that it won't kick in -- which is why the Doctor isn't just blase and casual about it when it happens. We saw this with the third regeneration in "Planet of the Spiders" -- the Doctor almost didn't regenerate, but needed K'anpo's help to jumpstart the process. And while he did regenerate after "Logopolis," we saw that there was a risk of the regeneration failing and the Doctor not surviving -- or at least regenerating again right after, and who knew if the next one would be stable? (See also "The Christmas Invasion" for a touch-and-go post-regeneration phase.) And of course we saw in "The Impossible Astronaut" that if the Doctor got fatally injured during regeneration, it would halt the process and leave him dead.

With something like the injuries the Doctor sustained in "Logopolis" or the McGann movie, where the cause of the damage is over with by the time regeneration starts, it's just a matter of healing the damage that's been done. But in "Androzani," with the spectrox toxin still coursing through his body and doing lethal damage, the Doctor couldn't be sure the regeneration process would be able to cancel out that damage, rather than vice-versa. And perhaps the iffiness of that regeneration was why the Sixth Doctor was so erratic at first.
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Old March 21 2013, 02:12 AM   #60
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Re: Was Hartnell first?

That wasn't the Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut though and the eighth Doctor did say that he might've been dead too long for the regeneration to take place. The sixth Doctor's behavior after the regeneration was chalked up the suddeness of the regeneration.
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