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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 20 2013, 05:41 PM   #61
Marsden
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

feek61 wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
Actually, I never thought of it before your last post, but why didn't anyone use a hand communicator to call Lexington?

(we really don't have a facepalm smiley?)

It's disheartening to like and defend something and then really see a huge plot hole big enough to drive the Fesarius through. In over 30 years I never noticed they didn't use a hand communicator.
I always assumed that the M-5 had a damping field around the ship blocking communications. Similar to what they did in "Journey to Babel" when they limited the transmission to the alien ship from that fake Andorian guy.
They didn't block communications in Journey to Babel, they located the transmitter with a locator. Thelev was able to speak to the other ship, until they caught him. They didn't even know he had a transmitter until his antenna broke.

But then, if hand communicators wouldn't work because of M-5 blocking all frequencies, I'm back to the first course, that M-5's total control of the ship was just that, total, and no amount of jibberjabber that the surviving 19 man crew could stop it, but no one outside of those 19 would have thought or guessed it.

A really bad analogy would be like the Enterprise was a mad dog, and whether it was abuse or rabies that caused the behavior, it has to be stopped. Kirk crazy, he'll show'em, or M-5 out of control and killing, it's really irrelevant who's pulling the trigger. Maybe Chekov seized his chance with only 19 other guys to beat and take over and rule the galaxy as Czar Pavel I.
Actually, the person who wanted to "show'em" is really Daystrom, Daystrom the one who imprinted his engrams into M-5, which inherited his crazy. You don't expect your toaster to go rouge and assault you, unless you live in Maximum Overdrive. I'm being more silly today, but still my point... I thought I had a point.
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Old March 20 2013, 06:15 PM   #62
HarryM
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

I think it's Wesley's first reaction that's the most irritating "Full phasers. What the devil is Kirk doing?", he immediately assumes Kirk is up to no good or off his rocker, not that the M-5 malfunctioned, which would be the logical first conclusion.
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Old March 20 2013, 06:52 PM   #63
Pavonis
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

No, I think the question "What is Kirk doing?" is in relation to the question of why he hasn't disabled the M5. Wesley is wondering what Kirk is doing instead of hitting the kill switch.
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Old March 20 2013, 07:45 PM   #64
Grant
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Commodore Wesley confuses me

He confuses me too...he goes from a redshirt likely to die soon to a gold shirt in command of the Lexington just by changing his name.

That's a huge upgrade.

But really, his line, "What is kirk doing?" is just terrible.

It clearly should have been....

"Full phasers?--somethings gone wrong over there!!"

By saying Kirk's name as he did it implies Kirk is at fault and that's bad writing.

You can say he knew M-5 was malfunctioning and was wondering why Kirk hasn't stopped it, but that's just making up for the bad writing.

Unless he is a nut or has a pathological hatred for Kirk--he just wouldn't have phrased it that way.
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Old March 20 2013, 07:51 PM   #65
Timo
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Oh, I dunno. Why would anybody in the ultraconservative, technophobic world of Starfleet think of a machine as a culprit to anything? Sure, these people will recognize the chance of a malfunction, but it's implausible that they would personify it by saying "M-5 must be going mad!" or "The computer did it!".

Unless, of course, we're talking about Richard Daystrom. But then again, the entire point was that he was stark raving mad.

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Old March 20 2013, 08:06 PM   #66
Robert Comsol
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

WESLEY: "You've been chosen to test the M-5, Jim. There'll be a series of routine research and contact problems for the M-5 to solve, plus navigational manoeuvres and the war games problem. If the M-5 works under actual conditions as well as it has under simulated tests, it will mean a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive. When your crew has been removed, the ship's engineering section will be modified to contain the computer."

Apparently Wesley considered a failure of M-5 not only improbable but rather impossible. And during the first tests the M-5 performed flawlessly. That could explain his "Kirk?!" reaction.

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Old March 20 2013, 08:54 PM   #67
siskokid888
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
siskokid888 wrote: View Post
CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Maybe that's exactly what Wesley thought Kirk was doing, just sitting back and watching... Wesley would have then thought "Why the hell doesn't he hit manual override and turn that damn computer off!?!?"
I think that's what went on - when Wesley says "what the devil is Kirk doing?", he means "why hasn't Kirk shut the M5 off?", not "why is Kirk attacking us?" As I recall, M5 shut off communications, so there was no way for Wesley to find out what was up or even if Kirk and company were still alive. At that point he assumes the ship is out of control, and moves to destroy it.
"Full phasers? What the devil is Kirk doing? Damage report, Lieutenant. Helm, course one six four, mark three."

"Enterprise--Jim! Have you gone mad? What are you trying to prove? Break off the attack! Jim, we have fifty three dead here--twelve on the Excalibur! If you can hear us, stop the attack!"

"Jim, why don't you answer? Jim! Answer! Come in, Jim!"

"Jim, break off your attack!"

I think the notion that Wesley thought Kirk was trying to prove something actually has some merit. It's too bad we can't ask Bob Wesley what he thought was happening and to what degree he thought Kirk was responsible.
That may be true, but his final actions fly in the face of that, I think. When the M5 leaves the Enterprise open to attack, Wesley doesn't just blow it apart - he puts the Lexington and the other ships at risk by assuming that Kirk has disabled the machine (or it has become disabled by other means) and flys in to assist. If he felt that Kirk had killed hundreds to prove something, or had gone mad, or had some vendetta against him, he could have destroyed the E, and been perfectly justified in doing it.
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Old March 20 2013, 09:18 PM   #68
Marsden
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Grant wrote: View Post
Commodore Wesley confuses me

He confuses me too...he goes from a redshirt likely to die soon to a gold shirt in command of the Lexington just by changing his name.

That's a huge upgrade.

But really, his line, "What is kirk doing?" is just terrible.

It clearly should have been....

"Full phasers?--somethings gone wrong over there!!"

By saying Kirk's name as he did it implies Kirk is at fault and that's bad writing.

You can say he knew M-5 was malfunctioning and was wondering why Kirk hasn't stopped it, but that's just making up for the bad writing.

Unless he is a nut or has a pathological hatred for Kirk--he just wouldn't have phrased it that way.
I don't really think he does like Kirk, why call him dunsel?

Plus, I think that what many posters have mentioned, a captain is in charge and responsible and that's what he concludes, instantly, just after his unshielded ship is struck by full power weapons. I really don't think he's considering very much beside he just had something terrible happen and if this wasn't 60s network television his choice of words would have a been a bit more explicit. I don't think it's bad writing, it's the reaction of the character.
Why not blame Kirk, it's his ship.
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Old March 20 2013, 09:57 PM   #69
Redfern
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Only tangently related to the discussion...

Something dawned upon me so I checked the initial airdate of this episode which was March 8, 1968. Oddly enough, Kubrick's magnum opus, "2001: A Space Odyssey" debuted almost a month later, April 6, 1968.

Hey! Kubrick stole from Trek!!!

Okay, even as grade school humor, that was lame. Still, you gotta' chuckle at the timing.

We now return this thread to its normal (abnormal?) discussion.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old March 20 2013, 10:18 PM   #70
Grant
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Marsden wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
Commodore Wesley confuses me

He confuses me too...he goes from a redshirt likely to die soon to a gold shirt in command of the Lexington just by changing his name.

That's a huge upgrade.

But really, his line, "What is kirk doing?" is just terrible.

It clearly should have been....

"Full phasers?--somethings gone wrong over there!!"

By saying Kirk's name as he did it implies Kirk is at fault and that's bad writing.

You can say he knew M-5 was malfunctioning and was wondering why Kirk hasn't stopped it, but that's just making up for the bad writing.

Unless he is a nut or has a pathological hatred for Kirk--he just wouldn't have phrased it that way.
I don't really think he does like Kirk, why call him dunsel?

Plus, I think that what many posters have mentioned, a captain is in charge and responsible and that's what he concludes, instantly, just after his unshielded ship is struck by full power weapons. I really don't think he's considering very much beside he just had something terrible happen and if this wasn't 60s network television his choice of words would have a been a bit more explicit. I don't think it's bad writing, it's the reaction of the character.
Why not blame Kirk, it's his ship.
I'm not buying that either. Maybe it was thoughless to call Kirk that, but Wesley knew if M-5 worked flawlessly--a LOT of people were out of a job. So the dunsel comment was kind of a rueful way of saying "we're all obsolete."

Last edited by Grant; March 20 2013 at 10:58 PM.
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Old March 21 2013, 01:29 AM   #71
Warped9
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Timo wrote: View Post
I mean, we've never seen Starfleet hand communicator to hand communicator contact when the mothership is out of range.
"That Which Survives." Kirk, McCoy, Sulu and DiMato communicate with each other while the Enterprise is a thousand light years away.

Timo wrote: View Post
We've never seen Starfleet hand communicator contact from within the ship to any outside asset.
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"Mudd's Women." Harry Mudd uses a communicator to secretly contact the Rigel miners.
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Old March 21 2013, 02:24 AM   #72
Marsden
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

Grant wrote: View Post
I'm not buying that either. Maybe it was thoughless to call Kirk that, but Wesley knew if M-5 worked flawlessly--a LOT of people were out of a job. So the dunsel comment was kind of a rueful way of saying "we're all obsolete."

I percive.

I think we are really seeing to different interpretations. I think you seem to think Wesley regards Kirk as an equal, a comrade or even in a tight knit club, not really a personal friend but in the same boat on the obsolete issue. I may be wrong with that assessment and I'm not trying to tell you how to think.

I see Wesley as thinking he's clearly above Kirk. Yeah, too bad for you Kirk, but I'm still going to be at HQ ordering fleets around. I think he looks down on Kirk the whole time, "it's a real honor Jim" I don't equate the colloquial nature and first name basis for friendship, just a cordial working environment. Look at how puzzled he was Spock knew all about it. He was the cat with the canary until Spock started it, lording it over Kirk. I don't think he hated Kirk in any way, just that he's better. Just look at the reactions of the bridge crew. I think Sulu and Chekov were both pissed, and Spock the emotionless guy, he really didn't like it either. If he said that in a bar, someone might have hit him, Commodore or not. I actually thought McCoy denseness was up too high, I think he could have done with out on or two "what does it mean"s but no one wanted to answer in Kirk's hearing because they didn't want to repeat the insult. That was quite an insult. A slap in the face for a guy like Kirk.

So, I think that's where our opinions on this differ. He is more willing to blame a subordinate for failing than the equipment.
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Old March 21 2013, 04:59 AM   #73
blssdwlf
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

I think the reason Wesley is putting it all on Kirk is because of the control switch installed on Kirk's chair.

Could M-5 malfunction? Yes, and Kirk would then hit the switch and turn it off. Daystrom is on board to fix it. That's probably what is going through Wesley's mind.

And because neither Kirk, Spock, Scott or anyone on the Enterprise (with maybe Daystrom as an exception) ever suspected that M-5 could:
1. Re-route all control circuits to make manual overrides ineffective.
2. Put up a defensive shield making it impossible to be tampered with.
3. Draw power directly from the power plants and energy banks.
4. Had Daystrom's engrams and be able to think irrationally.
5. M-5 can ignore the captain's chair switch. Fail safe? What's that?

then there is no reason for Wesley to believe that M-5 could not be stopped. As far as Wesley's concerned, if M-5 malfunctioned then Kirk just can hit the switch and stop it.

So one way of looking at Wesley's dialogue:
WESLEY: Full phasers. What the devil is Kirk doing? Damage report, Lieutenant. Helm, course one six four, mark three.

(Why the heck isn't Kirk turning off M-5? He just let it fire full phasers at us!)

WESLEY: Enterprise. Jim. Have you gone mad? What are you trying to prove? Break off the attack! Jim, we have fifty three dead here, twelve on the Excalibur. If you can hear us, stop the attack!

(Jim! If you're trying to prove M-5 can't be trusted by letting it fire full phasers at us you're insane for letting it do it! Turn the machine off! And if you're firing phasers at us without M-5 active then you're insane. Stop the attack!)

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Old March 21 2013, 11:31 AM   #74
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Kirk was so disliked by his peers that Wesley was more willing to believe Kirk had finally went off the deep end than that the M-5 was malfunctioning.
Sadara wrote: View Post
I guess I overlooked it, but I didn't really sense that Kirk's peers disliked him that much.
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But Wesley's "Jim, what are you doing?" is indeed rather odd, since Kirk says at the end of the episode that he knew Robert Wesley.

So it's safe to assume that this is mutual and Bob Wesley should know that Kirk ...
Just because Kirk knows Wesley, it doesn't automatically follow that Wesley knows Kirk. Wesley could have dozens, perhaps hundreds, of starship commanders under his authority.

And there no real indication that Kirk is particularly well thought of inside of Starfleet. In Court Martial his fellow Captain seemed all too ready to reach the conclusion to he deliberately killed Finney, another Captain might have received more support. And he was chosen to have the M5 mounted in his ship, as opposed to being a part of the task force during the war games.

Kirk's also the Captain who runs alien princess to their weddings, does cargo runs, get to visit a two member archeological team for their medical exams.

Yet, he's obviously the favorite.

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Old March 21 2013, 12:07 PM   #75
C.E. Evans
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Re: Commodore Wesley confuses me

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Kirk was so disliked by his peers that Wesley was more willing to believe Kirk had finally went off the deep end than that the M-5 was malfunctioning.
Sadara wrote: View Post
I guess I overlooked it, but I didn't really sense that Kirk's peers disliked him that much.
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But Wesley's "Jim, what are you doing?" is indeed rather odd, since Kirk says at the end of the episode that he knew Robert Wesley.

So it's safe to assume that this is mutual and Bob Wesley should know that Kirk ...
Just because Kirk knows Wesley, it doesn't automatically follow that Wesley knows Kirk. Wesley could have dozens, perhaps hundreds, of starship commanders under his authority.

And there no real indication that Kirk is particularly well thought of inside of Starfleet. In Court Martial his fellow Captain seemed all too ready to reach the conclusion to he deliberately killed Finney, another Captain might have received more support. And he was chosen to have the M5 mounted in his ship, as opposed to being a part of the task force during the war games.

Kirk's also the Captain who runs alien princess to their weddings, does cargo runs, get to visit a two member archeological team for their medical exams.

Yet, he's obviously the favorite.

My quote was a joke (there was a smiley attached----omitted).
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