RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,162
Posts: 5,434,841
Members: 24,937
Currently online: 555
Newest member: bryanb2014

TrekToday headlines

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 20 2013, 03:36 PM   #1
Deimos Anomaly
Rear Admiral
 
Deimos Anomaly's Avatar
 
Location: Hiberniae Septentrionalis
Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Some scenes it seems that way to me. It actually seems a bit schizophrenic... Sometimes a Jedi takes out loads of enemies, other times they get rendered helpless essentially by being tied up. Which seems daft, since they can still use the force.

I mean when you look at Jedi in the movies... you get the impression that Jedi should go through "normal" foes like a freaking force of nature. But quite often that doesn't seem the case in TCW.

Sometimes they just seem to not use their power when it would be an obvious time to do so. It's like they forget they have the force. I've been noticing this pattern for a while, but one recent episode I watched was particularly silly I thought... (I am in the middle of Season 4, catching up, I never watched TCW before so I've been working through it after downloading all the previous eps.) It was an episode where they go after these slavers who have captured a bunch of colonists and sold them into slavery.

Anyway there is a set up similar to the one on Jabba's sail barge at the Sarlaac. There are three Jedi of various calibers and an ARC Trooper commander, and none of the bad guys know who they are. One of the Jedi is as close to the evil queen as Leia was to Jabba... but with the advantage of being a Jedi. R2D2 fires out lightsabers to them and they go on the attack. They should rack up a mega body count and scythe their way out of there and rescue the colonists. Instead they get captured in short order and made slaves themselves. Compare to ROTJ where only Luke was a Jedi, and Jabba had Boba Fett among others on his side (and Han was blind!) but Luke still went thru them like a knife.

Then Anakin force chokes the queen but sorta gives up... He could have killed her easily but he just quits.

And Ahsoka is locked in a cage hanging over a cliff, and a slaver comes to leer at her and she sort of force-shoves him and he almost falls off the edge, after which the enraged slaver activiates her torture collar... Like Anakin and the queen, she could have easily killed the slaver, hurled him to his death, but she just didn't. And the result of letting him live was... extremely painful.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan is sent to this slave-run metal foundry and forced to shovel coal into furnaces. That's it. And these slavers come along and beat slaves in front of him and torture him and the other slaves with impunity. He could kill them easily! He's a jedi master! He faced down Dooku on Geonosis, he defeated Darth Maul on Naboo... he could choke them, take their weapons off them, hurl any of the many many dangerous objects at them, pick them up and chuck them into the blast furnace etc. but he just doesn't.

It annoys me a bit.

Rant over.
__________________
I had a friend once, but the wheels fell off. Sad, very sad.
Deimos Anomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 03:48 PM   #2
Stephen!
Captain
 
Stephen!'s Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Deimos Anomaly wrote: View Post
They should rack up a mega body count and scythe their way out of there and rescue the colonists.
That's the sort of thing Anakin did in episode 2. Mass murder isn't really the way of the Jedi.
Stephen! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:01 PM   #3
The Mirrorball Man
Vice Admiral
 
The Mirrorball Man's Avatar
 
Location: Switzerland
View The Mirrorball Man's Twitter Profile
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

That's how fiction works: characters face conflict in an entertaining way. Worldbuilding is there to add some flavor, but if it gets in the way of telling the story it's quickly forgotten about. Among genre fiction fans, for some reason, some people think that worldbuilding should trump story, but that simply doesn't work.
__________________
Check out my deviantArt gallery!
The Mirrorball Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:03 PM   #4
USS Firefly
Commander
 
USS Firefly's Avatar
 
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

And you have general grievous who you only have to use the force to stop/ kill him, but nobody think's of that and he also kills Jedi
USS Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:14 PM   #5
Icemizer
Fleet Captain
 
Icemizer's Avatar
 
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Judge me by my body count do you? And well you should not.
Icemizer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:16 PM   #6
Deimos Anomaly
Rear Admiral
 
Deimos Anomaly's Avatar
 
Location: Hiberniae Septentrionalis
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

I don't mean to suggest that a non-Jedi should never be able to kill a Jedi. (Qui-Gon said as much when kid Anakin thought that Jedi were invincible). But it should require being a lot more creative and shouldn't be anywhere near as easy as it is half the time in TCW. As I said above, it almost seems like they forget they have Jedi powers.
__________________
I had a friend once, but the wheels fell off. Sad, very sad.
Deimos Anomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:22 PM   #7
Sketcher
Commander
 
Sketcher's Avatar
 
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

That's the one thing that I enjoyed about the OT. It took massive amounts of concentration to do things like lift a ship out of a swamp or get flashes of the future. The limitations made them seem more like highly skilled warriors rather than superheroes. And you felt more for the characters when Luke was getting beaten by force-flung crates vs when Obi-Wan dropped ten stories and got up without a scratch.
Sketcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:32 PM   #8
Deimos Anomaly
Rear Admiral
 
Deimos Anomaly's Avatar
 
Location: Hiberniae Septentrionalis
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Another example I remember from one of the last few eps I watched: The rogue four-armed Jedi who kills loads of clones once he is unmasked, but as soon as he's been stunned, when he wakes up again with shackles on, he is suddenly helpless before Rex and his men. He could choke them all, or hurl them headfirst into the wall at 100mph, but he seems just suddenly helpless. Has he, too, forgotten his powers or what...
__________________
I had a friend once, but the wheels fell off. Sad, very sad.
Deimos Anomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 04:59 PM   #9
Caliburn24
Commodore
 
Location: Gig Harbor, Washington
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Jedi having whatever powers(and forgetting powers) the plot demands is a problem with the entire franchise, but especially with TCW, mostly because we see more Jedi combat, a lot more. One week Jedi will be slicing and dicing through an endless stream of enemies, the next week they seem weak as a kitten.

Another problem I have with TCW, is that the Seperatists don't seem to care about creating anti-Jedi weapons. They have the shielded battle droids, and the sonic weapons. But the former is only used to up tension, then easily defeated. And the latter is almost never used because Jedi can't block it, which makes it less cool.

I would have loved if more specific stuff was being fielded by the Seperatists to counter Jedi. Zahn's Ysalamiri creatures would have been amazing to see onscreen, and possibly help to rein in Jedi-power creep, with an easily understood visual element.
Caliburn24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 05:29 PM   #10
TREK_GOD_1
Fleet Captain
 
TREK_GOD_1's Avatar
 
Location: Escaped from Delta Vega
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Star Wars suffers from a few continuity issues where Jedi ability is concerned. Before this is pointed out, it must be remembered that this occurs in situations where the Jedi would be pressed to use his or her ability (IOW, they are not holding back for any reason, etc.).

In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan and Yoda cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties. Even the ultimately ill-fated padawan who attacked the clones fared better than Jedi with decades of training / experience.

Similarly, Luke destroyed Jabba's army of henchmen with little help in Return of the Jedi.

However, when Anakin and the clones show up at the temple, the Jedi are overwhelmed like children. I'm not buying any "but Kenobi, Yoda and Luke are among the most powerful Jedi" stuff, as we already have the example of the padawan Bail observed holding his own better than the more experienced Jedi.

It appears Jedi are big time ass-kickers when necessary, otherwise, they roll over and die with the ease of the old, green plastic soldier toys.
__________________
"...to be like God, you have the power to make the world anything you want it to be."
TREK_GOD_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 07:20 PM   #11
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
Jedi having whatever powers(and forgetting powers) the plot demands is a problem with the entire franchise, but especially with TCW, mostly because we see more Jedi combat, a lot more. One week Jedi will be slicing and dicing through an endless stream of enemies, the next week they seem weak as a kitten.
Agreed, but a lot of sci-fi/fantasy suffers from this. How many times for example did we see in Star Trek the magical engineering solution of the week to solve a plot problem only to be forgotten about as a possible solution to a like problem 3 episodes later?
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 08:16 PM   #12
Caliburn24
Commodore
 
Location: Gig Harbor, Washington
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Agreed, but a lot of sci-fi/fantasy suffers from this. How many times for example did we see in Star Trek the magical engineering solution of the week to solve a plot problem only to be forgotten about as a possible solution to a like problem 3 episodes later?
It isn't just sci-fi/fantasy, all genres suffer from this to some extent. TV/movies is the worst medium for it because everything is sacrificed to the all consuming "pacing" god. Without exposition, without an understanding of the intricacies of a conflict, whether it is a universe wide war, or a single hand-to-hand melee it is all just flashy eye-candy.

My Dad for example has no appreciation of MMA, it is just two guys rolling around on the ground hugging each other to him. Where as someone like myself, who has some experience with mixed martial arts, gets a lot more out of it because I can recognize and understand what is going on.

But alas, asking for more exposition in any entertainment medium seems like a losing fight in an age of shortening attention spans.
Caliburn24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 08:45 PM   #13
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Sketcher wrote: View Post
That's the one thing that I enjoyed about the OT. It took massive amounts of concentration to do things like lift a ship out of a swamp or get flashes of the future. The limitations made them seem more like highly skilled warriors rather than superheroes. And you felt more for the characters when Luke was getting beaten by force-flung crates vs when Obi-Wan dropped ten stories and got up without a scratch.
Then again, I got the impression from Yoda that the limits on the use of force were caused by self-doubt. A well-trained Jedi wouldn't have these limits.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 08:59 PM   #14
Stephen!
Captain
 
Stephen!'s Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

Sketcher wrote: View Post
That's the one thing that I enjoyed about the OT. It took massive amounts of concentration to do things like lift a ship out of a swamp or get flashes of the future. The limitations made them seem more like highly skilled warriors rather than superheroes. And you felt more for the characters when Luke was getting beaten by force-flung crates vs when Obi-Wan dropped ten stories and got up without a scratch.
Although it could just be that Yoda was really old by that point and Luke was still a novice.
Stephen! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20 2013, 10:24 PM   #15
TREK_GOD_1
Fleet Captain
 
TREK_GOD_1's Avatar
 
Location: Escaped from Delta Vega
Re: Jedi nerfed in TCW?

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Agreed, but a lot of sci-fi/fantasy suffers from this. How many times for example did we see in Star Trek the magical engineering solution of the week to solve a plot problem only to be forgotten about as a possible solution to a like problem 3 episodes later?
The difference here is that a machine--engines--are easily subject to breakdowns, repairs no longer working, updates going through paces before functioning properly. Jedi are not machines--their power is as much a part of their makeup as their organs, so the use of this power by trained individuals should not suffer from highs and lows, forgotten skills, etc.

There are so many huge differences between specific Jedi skill they all possess, that it renders the characters as flimsy to support weak writing. One of the most glaring examples is Jedi speed used early in The Phantom Menace, but when a character would need it most...nothing. All we have are fan excuses of Kenobi being tired after the fall/leap, which was never implied on screen.

Everyone knows Qui-Gon had to be separated in order for Maul to kill him (well, that was what Lucas had us believe)....but the same result could have been accomplished with Kenobi in the mix. Numbers did not stop Sidious from killing Jedi in his office.
__________________
"...to be like God, you have the power to make the world anything you want it to be."
TREK_GOD_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.