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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 20 2013, 01:04 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

They re-imagined the Enterprise, just like they re-imagined the Klingons.
Well, not really.

After all, they took care to show the old ship as well, in that Rec Deck display of images. TOS wasn't supposed to be "remembered differently", or forgotten. Not in that particular respect anyway.

The thing about the TMP ship is that, backstage measurements aside, every part of her is bigger than the "original" TOS counterpart. The saucer could have been created by adding a new rim and bulging out the bulges a bit more; the secondary hull could have received a new surface layer of spaces; the neck could have been strengthened.

Basically, the old ship would fit inside the new one, save for the engines and the secondary hull bow.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...perimposed.jpg

Timo Saloniemi
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Old March 20 2013, 05:02 PM   #17
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

This seems interesting towards this subject.
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Old March 20 2013, 05:10 PM   #18
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Lance wrote: View Post
I always liked the fact that something that looks very much like the dilithium intermix chamber from TOS is still visible in the wall of Engineering in that footage shot for Phase II. Gave a nice feeling of "This is still the same ship underneath all the cosmetic additions". I'm not so sure if it survived to the TMP version of the sets, though.
AFAIK, that same engineering set with the dilithium chamber was built for Phase II, first used in TMP, and continued to be used in the second through sixth films plus the engine rooms of TNG and Voyager.
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Old March 20 2013, 05:55 PM   #19
F. King Daniel
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Timo wrote: View Post
They re-imagined the Enterprise, just like they re-imagined the Klingons.
Well, not really.

After all, they took care to show the old ship as well, in that Rec Deck display of images. TOS wasn't supposed to be "remembered differently", or forgotten. Not in that particular respect anyway.

The thing about the TMP ship is that, backstage measurements aside, every part of her is bigger than the "original" TOS counterpart. The saucer could have been created by adding a new rim and bulging out the bulges a bit more; the secondary hull could have received a new surface layer of spaces; the neck could have been strengthened.

Basically, the old ship would fit inside the new one, save for the engines and the secondary hull bow.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...perimposed.jpg

Timo Saloniemi
The pic in the rec room was a cute little nod for fans, but that's about it. Gene Roddenberry himself suggested The Original Series as an inaccurate portrayal of the 23rd century in his novelization of The Motion Picture. And of course, he's on record that the Klingons "always" looked the way they did in TMP and beyond, and that's the way it was until DS9 made a joke of it and Enterprise's fan-wank-tastic final season that said otherwise.

The complete change in look from 60's TV (with randomly blinking coloured squares for buttons) to late 70's movie (with far more realistic interfaces) is subsitution, not a plausible in-universe evolution.
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Old March 20 2013, 06:32 PM   #20
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
They re-imagined the Enterprise, just like they re-imagined the Klingons.
Well, not really.

After all, they took care to show the old ship as well, in that Rec Deck display of images. TOS wasn't supposed to be "remembered differently", or forgotten. Not in that particular respect anyway.

The thing about the TMP ship is that, backstage measurements aside, every part of her is bigger than the "original" TOS counterpart. The saucer could have been created by adding a new rim and bulging out the bulges a bit more; the secondary hull could have received a new surface layer of spaces; the neck could have been strengthened.

Basically, the old ship would fit inside the new one, save for the engines and the secondary hull bow.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...perimposed.jpg

Timo Saloniemi
The pic in the rec room was a cute little nod for fans, but that's about it. Gene Roddenberry himself suggested The Original Series as an inaccurate portrayal of the 23rd century in his novelization of The Motion Picture. And of course, he's on record that the Klingons "always" looked the way they did in TMP and beyond, and that's the way it was until DS9 made a joke of it and Enterprise's fan-wank-tastic final season that said otherwise.

The complete change in look from 60's TV (with randomly blinking coloured squares for buttons) to late 70's movie (with far more realistic interfaces) is subsitution, not a plausible in-universe evolution.
Yep. The Klingons were always supposed to have ridges, but unfortunately, no one could just say, "Oh, OK," and leave it at that. The repercussions are even felt in Abrams' Trek, where he hedges his bets and the Klingons wear those silly helmets that only hint at ridges.

As for the look of the Enterprise, it was more problematic. The most recognizeable symbol of "Star Trek", it wasn't possible to just say it "always" looked that way. There needed to be an explanation of the new look, and a "refit" was as good as any.

I'd be curious to know if anyone at the time considered saying it was a new and different starship Enterprise. Although, I could see them being uncomfortable with that idea because it meant either Kirk's Enterprise was destroyed sometime between TOS and TMP, or it was retired. And of course, there would be registry number issues because the new ship couldn't technically be NCC-1701. Guess it could've been NCC-1701-A, though.

But it's silly to rationalize the ship as a refit of the TOS Enterprise. It's just too different in size and proportion. No attempt was made by the designers (of the model and sets, not in-universe designers) to keep bits and pieces of the old look just as a nod to the idea of it being a refit.
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Old March 20 2013, 07:23 PM   #21
Lance
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

From the Phase II bible:

The refurbished Enterprise is slightly changed, just enough for the audience to say "Yes, it is the Enterprise, and even lovelier than before..."
I wonder if the Phase II versions of the interiors might have retained more of a TOS look, despite the updated TMP interfaces having originated with the abandoned series. Maybe the Phase II versions of certain sets would have retained more of the TOS color scheme? Or maybe they might have had a rougher edge to them? (Presumably the already half built sets got all got a top-to-bottom retrofit when it was decided definitively to blow them up to big screen size.)
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Old March 20 2013, 07:44 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

The complete change in look from 60's TV (with randomly blinking coloured squares for buttons) to late 70's movie (with far more realistic interfaces) is subsitution, not a plausible in-universe evolution.
Nothing about Star Trek can be called "plausible" by any stretch of the word. We witness explicit in-universe evolution as the movies and spinoffs proceed, and it takes place in leaps and bounds just as great as the one from TOS to TMP. Indeed, evolution within each TV show happens much the same way. So that particular argument doesn't really convince.

Sure, the individual artists involved in making TMP might have had ideas that differed from those of the TOS makers. But the same happened again in the transition from TMP to TWoK, and things then evolved "back and forth", occasionally going closer to the TOS origins (or even beyond), occasionally trying out "contemporary" things, occasionally trying to be truly futuristic (and failing). A change in "look", no matter how thorough, is no sign of a discontinuity in Star Trek, by the standards of Star Trek.

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Old March 21 2013, 04:27 PM   #23
Retu
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Franklin wrote: View Post

I'd be curious to know if anyone at the time considered saying it was a new and different starship Enterprise. Although, I could see them being uncomfortable with that idea because it meant either Kirk's Enterprise was destroyed sometime between TOS and TMP, or it was retired. And of course, there would be registry number issues because the new ship couldn't technically be NCC-1701. Guess it could've been NCC-1701-A, though.

But it's silly to rationalize the ship as a refit of the TOS Enterprise. It's just too different in size and proportion. No attempt was made by the designers (of the model and sets, not in-universe designers) to keep bits and pieces of the old look just as a nod to the idea of it being a refit.
I don't see why it couldn't be the same ship. History knows examples, where even a destroyed (or in this case, a sunken) ship has been rebuilt to look completely different than the original one. For example USS Merrimack was rebuilt as CSS Virginia:

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Old March 21 2013, 08:00 PM   #24
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Maurice wrote: View Post
The name and number.
And its crew.
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Old March 22 2013, 03:13 PM   #25
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Timo wrote: View Post
A change in "look", no matter how thorough, is no sign of a discontinuity in Star Trek, by the standards of Star Trek.

Timo Saloniemi
True. Additionally, this is sci-fi, where changes in the design or surface details of a ship within a short amount of time are not a sign of continuity problems or reimagining the entire series. It was no more reimagining (because it was not) than the very 80's-design sensibilities of the panels/controls of 2010's Leonov were because of its obvious differences to the technology seen aboard Discovery from 2001: A Space Odyssey.

In 2010, the Leonov had be under construction in the same era as Discovery, but the tech of the former screams an advancement of decades (as in the real world passage of time), but we accept it, because in sci-fi, the impossible is possible.
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Old March 22 2013, 03:23 PM   #26
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Apparently, they kept some computer files:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/t...lbum=46&page=2
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...2/tsfs0154.jpg

They kept the destruct sequence, too.
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Old March 25 2013, 11:09 AM   #27
Timo
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

In 2010, the Leonov had be under construction in the same era as Discovery, but the tech of the former screams an advancement of decades
Or vice versa. That is, the backward Russians would have obvious 1980s technology aboard a 2010s spacecraft, whereas the advanced Americans would have much more elegant technology of the sort that never existed in our universe (even if it had the aesthetics of future tech as imagined in the 1960s), is timeless, and in this particular universe is attributed to the 2010s.

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Old March 25 2013, 12:47 PM   #28
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Apparently, they kept some computer files:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/t...lbum=46&page=2
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...2/tsfs0154.jpg

They kept the destruct sequence, too.

Good one. That's a wonderful homage.

I think the main problem with the refit idea was that the Phase II enterprise model looked a lot more like the original than the final TMP one, but by then the script revolved around the idea of a refit Enterprise (rather than a successor) sitting in dry dock. So they were committed.

I think it was better that they redesign it more aggressively than to have gone with the Phase II enterprise, as the final refit model has aged a lot better. The Phase II model kind of looks like it's in a half-way metamorphosis and carries over too many 60s-isms.
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Old March 25 2013, 12:59 PM   #29
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

I there an easy place to see a pic of the Phase II Enterprise?
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Old March 25 2013, 01:04 PM   #30
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Marsden wrote: View Post
I there an easy place to see a pic of the Phase II Enterprise?
A couple links: Forgotten Trek, Forgotten Trek: Phase II Enterprise Page
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