Yet another "Memory Wall" post

[CorporalCaptain]

Awesome. So, pardon my ignorance, but would the cyclorama be stored rolled up?

[Lance]

This is an excellent effort Maab. I truly enjoyed looking through all of those. I've got mixed feelings about the Memory Wall sequence, but I think on some level it could have been better than what we got. I especially like the idea of how it allows some solid bonding between Kirk and Spock (Spock turns back from his self-imposed 'mission' to save Kirk from the cocoon, reminding us of all the times they'd done something similar on landing parties in TOS) which I feel the sickbay scene in the finished movie doesn't quite manage to do. Kirk's attitude during the sickbay scene always came across as unncessarily harsh to me, pressing Spock for answers; while Spock's delighted expression also struck me as being out of character, even if he did find what he saw when he melded with V'ger to be truly mind blowing.

[Maab]

Lance wrote:

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This is an excellent effort Maab. I truly enjoyed looking through all of those. I've got mixed feelings about the Memory Wall sequence, but I think on some level it could have been better than what we got. I especially like the idea of how it allows some solid bonding between Kirk and Spock (Spock turns back from his self-imposed 'mission' to save Kirk from the cocoon, reminding us of all the times they'd done something similar on landing parties in TOS) which I feel the sickbay scene in the finished movie doesn't quite manage to do. Kirk's attitude during the sickbay scene always came across as unncessarily harsh to me, pressing Spock for answers; while Spock's delighted expression also struck me as being out of character, even if he did find what he saw when he melded with V'ger to be truly mind blowing.

Thanks! I agree with you 100%. Spock going alone inside V’Ger makes the all scene more “cold”, which is one of the problem of the movie. Furthermore, shall we mention the fact that it seems at least unlikely that an unconscious Spock (without the thruster) would travel all the way back, passing through the opening and closing doors (what are they for anyway?) ending up just in Kirk’s arms?

Maurice wrote:

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That cyclorama is left over from The Towering Inferno, and based on the views of it from Kirk's apartment that places his address at roughly at 655 Market Street. Just FYI.

Impressive

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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Awesome. So, pardon my ignorance, but would the cyclorama be stored rolled up?

That would me my guess too.

Maab wrote:

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Good question. Does anyone know why the footage wasn't released in the end?
Maab

Since nobody answered I guess no explanation was given. Who knows if the footage will ever be released.

One last question: does anybody know where to find a better version of this picture?



Maab

Star Trek The Motion Picture - Memory Wall Pictures Collection

[CorporalCaptain]

Maab wrote:

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Thanks! I agree with you 100%. Spock going alone inside V’Ger makes the all scene more “cold”, which is one of the problem of the movie. Furthermore, shall we mention the fact that it seems at least unlikely that an unconscious Spock (without the thruster) would travel all the way back, passing through the opening and closing doors (what are they for anyway?) ending up just in Kirk’s arms?

Well, the only way I was able to accept how Spock ends up back at the Enterprise was that V'Ger tossed him back.

V'Ger doing that indicates yet another weakness in the story, not really just because he sends Spock back, if that's what happened, but because we never get a direct sense of why V'Ger would do that. The implication would be that V'Ger got something from Spock, as similarly Spock got something from V'Ger. Spock realized that purging his emotions was not the right path for him; I can only deduce that V'Ger must have perceived that Spock was more than simply a carbon unit, and that returning Spock to the ship must have somehow been essential to finding the Creator. Unfortunately, none of that dealt with explicitly in the film, and the fact that Kirk must use his argue-with-the-machine superpowers, to bargain a way deeper inside V'Ger, while the threat of digitizing Earth looms, all supports the idea that V'Ger made no connection with Spock at all. Maybe it was only an infinitesimal connection?

Since looking at this thread, I began daydreaming what it would have looked like, if, instead of Spock going through the orifice alone as in TMP, what if Kirk and Spock and gone through together? Yeah, there would be details to iron out, like not burning up all their combined fuel initially, but going through together could have demonstrated them bonding. So, basically, Kirk follows Spock out, but he gets to Spock before Spock has fired off his thruster pack. Then, they go in together; Kirk can even make a little joke before they go that he hopes Spock times the opening and closing of the orifice correctly. Once inside, instead of Spock talking into his log recorder, he and Kirk discuss what they are seeing together. So, after the mind meld, Kirk brings them back with the remaining fuel.

I really agree that them going into V'Ger together and escaping together would have vastly, vastly improved the scene in sickbay where they hold hands. Plus, the sickbay scene could've been sped up, too, I think.

[mos6507]

Maab wrote:

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it seems at least unlikely that an unconscious Spock (without the thruster) would travel all the way back, passing through the opening and closing doors (what are they for anyway?) ending up just in Kirk’s arms?

I always interpreted that as V'Ger having spit Spock out again via a tractor beam, after he became aware of him via the Mind Meld. It would have been better to show it, if that were the intent.

I think most people interpreted that thing as sphincter-like (cue the snickering). It could also be seen as a heart ventricle.

Even without the memory-wall, there's Fantastic Voyage analogues to be found.

==
I really agree that them going into V'Ger together and escaping together would have vastly, vastly improved the scene in sickbay where they hold hands. Plus, the sickbay scene could've been sped up, too, I think.
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I happen to really like the hand-holding scene, in fact I think it's the linchpin of the whole movie, yes, even with Kirk acting stiff. It's hard to know what it would be like without it. You'd have to watch the whole thing through in an alternate cut, kind of like comparing the Donner cut of Superman II.

[Maab]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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Since looking at this thread, I began daydreaming what it would have looked like, if, instead of Spock going through the orifice alone as in TMP, what if Kirk and Spock and gone through together?

I'd say it would have worked much better. The problem is that when Douglas Trumbull took over the special effects he really didn't have much time left. So he had to find a way to simplify things, without diminishing the movie's visual impact, and having Spock going alone was certainly simpler.

This is something I've always found funny. They had 10 years to make a movie and still they end up doing it in a rush. I remembered when the Star Wars DVDs were released, one of the people in charge said that their main enemy has been time. So the movies were released at least 20 years before, Star Wars was absolutely the last franchise to be released on DVD and still they did it rushing. It must be part of the nature of man: always allocate less time than necessary to do something.

Maab

[Lance]

Even putting aside the fact that the TMP script itself hadn't been tinkered with for that decade, various versions of "In Thy Image" had been floating around for the better part of 3/4 years by the point it finally went in front of the cameras. And they were still revising it while it was being shot!

I blame the confusion re: Phase II. The production psyched itself up for TV, and when the decision was made to green-light it as a movie instead, it caught everybody flat-footed. Everybody was rushing to adapt what had previously been a television script into something much grander, which is why the actors were receiving fresh pages on a daily basis that mostly consisted of scenes where they react to V'ger on the viewscreen. The idea was that maybe they could upscale it to movie size with lots of spectacle, but even then the effects house was being pushed against it's limits. Hence, alas, the memory wall was abandoned...

(I wonder if any of Spock's space walk as eventually seen in the movie was actually salvaged from raw footage shot for the memory wall?)

[Maab]

Lance wrote:

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(I wonder if any of Spock's space walk as eventually seen in the movie was actually salvaged from raw footage shot for the memory wall?)

No, that would have not been possible. When they abandoned the Memory Wall, they also changed the spacesuits.



Maab

[trevanian]

Plus, none of the trench or memory wall shows up as stuff reflected in either guy's faceplate. Considering how the look of the vger interior is totally different in the Trumbull version and the Abel version, that's only to be expected.

[Maurice]

Lance wrote:

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The idea was that maybe they could upscale it to movie size with lots of spectacle, but even then the effects house was being pushed against it's limits. Hence, alas, the memory wall was abandoned...

That's effects houses since it was Future General (Trumbull) and Apogee (Dykstra). Also, Trumbull was probably wise to suggest the change even if it wasn't for the effects budget. The sequence as scripted is slow and features a silly Raquel Welch moment. It's better that the journey is Spock's alone, and that it's over in a couple of minutes flat.

[Maab]

Maurice wrote:

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Also, Trumbull was probably wise to suggest the change even if it wasn't for the effects budget. The sequence as scripted is slow and features a silly Raquel Welch moment. It's better that the journey is Spock's alone, and that it's over in a couple of minutes flat.

Well, a proper comparison is impossible since the Memory Wall version was never completed, but I still prefer the scripted version to the final one. Since I'm using my imagination to fill the gaps it probably looks better in my mind than it would on screen, but there would be better character interaction.

And then what's wrong with "Fantastic Voyage"? That movie was released in 1966 (more than 10 years before The Motion Picture) and it was a milestone for special effects. I still remember vividly the first time I saw it (on television). I kept thinking about it for days after. It's a classic science fiction.

Maab

[CorporalCaptain]

I find the biggest problem with the spacewalk, as we have it, to be that it's not properly framed as being the suicide mission that it really should have seemed to be. Spock should have no reason to think that his log will ever be recovered, because after he's burned up all his fuel, he discards his thruster pack.

Why the heck couldn't they have made it a 40% fuel burn???? Heck, if they had done that, Spock could have set the autopilot to return him to the ship before making the first burn, just to better make sure that his log makes it out of the orifice. That way, we're also not wondering why V'Ger would bother to spit him back out, especially if the mind meld didn't discernibly affect V'Ger otherwise.

No doubt production time crunch played a role in bringing on the nonsense.

[Navigator_NCC2120]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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I find the biggest problem with the spacewalk, as we have it, to be that it's not properly framed as being the suicide mission that it really should have seemed to be. Spock should have no reason to think that his log will ever be recovered, because after he's burned up all his fuel, he discards his thruster pack.

Why the heck couldn't they have made it a 40% fuel burn???? Heck, if they had done that, Spock could have set the autopilot to return him to the ship before making the first burn, just to better make sure that his log makes it out of the orifice. That way, we're also not wondering why V'Ger would bother to spit him back out, especially if the mind meld didn't discernibly affect V'Ger otherwise.

No doubt production time crunch played a role in bringing on the nonsense.

I seriously doubt that Spock traveled far enough that he was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter. Geosynchronous orbit around Earth is 26,199 miles (42,164 kilometers). Do you really think Spock traveled more than 26,000 miles away from the Enterprise during his short space walk into V'ger's next chamber? Even if Spock was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter then couldn't the Enterprise use its tractor beam to open the orifice of the next chamber so that a shuttlecraft could travel through it and rescue Spock?


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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[Nightowl1701]

The Enterprise's sensor beams couldn't get past that orifice - what makes you think a transporter beam or a tractor beam could do any better?

[CorporalCaptain]

Navigator_NCC2120 wrote:

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I seriously doubt that Spock traveled far enough that he was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter. Geosynchronous orbit around Earth is 26,199 miles (42,164 kilometers). Do you really think Spock traveled more than 26,000 miles away from the Enterprise during his short space walk into V'ger's next chamber? Even if Spock was out of range of the Enterprise's transporter then couldn't the Enterprise use its tractor beam to open the orifice of the next chamber so that a shuttlecraft could travel through it and rescue Spock?


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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Force the orifice open with a tractor beam? Not likely.

Scans couldn't penetrate it, and the whole reason Spock went on the spacewalk in the first place was to get information about the inner chamber. I would assume that communications were blocked too. In that case, there would be no way to get a lock on Spock to beam him out. I doubt the transporters could penetrate either, for that matter.

Phasers and photons, maybe, to blast a hole in? Sure, if Kirk would like to risk getting the Enterprise digitized, assuming they're even effective at all.

Yes, Spock would probably stay in beaming range, for whatever that would be worth. It would be a case of "so close and yet so far".