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Old March 19 2013, 04:05 AM   #61
teacake
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

No but they put it into our brains..
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Old March 19 2013, 04:20 AM   #62
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

Grumble. Grumble Rasserfrat...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kook
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Old March 20 2013, 01:12 AM   #63
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

He wasn't racist, he was resentful.

Wait...did I just stick up for Archer?
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Old March 20 2013, 10:52 AM   #64
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

He wasn't the Messiah, he's was just a very naughty boy.
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Old March 20 2013, 05:04 PM   #65
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

I never saw Archer as racist. By the Earth POV, the Vulcans had been helpful at recovering from war. There might have been a US-Europe dynamic post WWII...but Europe grew resentful of the US's help in the long run, while the US always felt they owed us long term gratitude. What's more, as the Earth became more advanced in Archer's time, it became clear that the Vulcan's had in fact tried to keep us from advancing "too quickly" for a relatively new interstellar species. Thus there was a resentment from many of those trying to expand the frontiers of human exploration. Far from racism, there was a direct reason for the resentment in their eyes, while they acknowledged that Vulcan help was still necessary..

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Old March 20 2013, 10:08 PM   #66
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
He wasn't racist, he was resentful.

Wait...did I just stick up for Archer?
Eh, I wouldn't worry.

Now, If you ever hear ME sticking up for TRIP.....watch out. The end times are near.
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Old March 21 2013, 09:31 AM   #67
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

RAMA wrote: View Post
I never saw Archer as racist. By the Earth POV, the Vulcans had been helpful at recovering from war. There might have been a US-Europe dynamic post WWII...but Europe grew resentful of the US's help in the long run, while the US always felt they owed us long term gratitude. What's more, as the Earth became more advanced in Archer's time, it became clear that the Vulcan's had in fact tried to keep us from advancing "too quickly" for a relatively new interstellar species. Thus there was a resentment from many of those trying to expand the frontiers of human exploration. Far from racism, there was a direct reason for the resentment in their eyes, while they acknowledged that Vulcan help was still necessary..

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Old March 24 2013, 01:00 PM   #68
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

I think ENT erred in not being more clear about Archer's bias. They made the Vulcans' behavior confirm Archer's bias far too often, which let him off the hook. I wish they had used his issues with the Vulcans as part of his character arc and so that by the time of the Vulcan Reformation story and he actually carries Surak's katra he has this big transformation and sees the world differently and Vulcans differently from then on. It would've been more satisfying for me.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:34 PM   #69
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

Archer was no racist. He had serious and totally justified problems with the ways the pre-enlightenment Vulcans behaved and he didn't hold them back. So you could claim that he wasn't politically correct and I think this lack of diplomatic skills was a liability in many cases but not when dealing with the Vulcans.
Let's not forget that the most sublime friendship in ENT was anything but politically correct. Archer and Shran never held anything back which is precisely why they became friends.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:48 PM   #70
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

^ Exactly. Archer wasn't prejudiced against Vulcans for who they are - if he were, he wouldn't have been able to serve with T'Pol for so long. He was pissed at them for specific actions that they carried out: restricting Earth's technological development and holding back Earth's expansion into space. That's not racism - it's TRUTH.
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Old April 21 2013, 11:20 PM   #71
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

Point is Jonothan thought crazy talk was rational talk becuase he heroworshipped someone who was mentally ill and he was too young and stupid to know the difference.
I had actually forgotten that little plot point from S4--but I agree that little throwaway line pretty much undermines everything Archer's had to say on the Vulcans. He's been a grade A toolshed on the issue, but I think the writers did a decent job of showing that it wasn't all in his head. Many of the Vulcans were micromanaging dicks.

That said, Archer just came off as a whiny, petulant child than an actual bigot. Having since joined the military myself since the show last aired, I can't turn off the fact that dynamic between him and T'Pol would have tanked morale among the crew like a mofo.
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Old April 21 2013, 11:41 PM   #72
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Exactly. Archer wasn't prejudiced against Vulcans for who they are - if he were, he wouldn't have been able to serve with T'Pol for so long. He was pissed at them for specific actions that they carried out: restricting Earth's technological development and holding back Earth's expansion into space. That's not racism - it's TRUTH.
Indeed. From fairly early on it was basically Archer & T'Pol vs. the High Command, not to mention that Archer trusted T'Pol, found her attractive and in the alternate timeline of Twilight they are a couple. No idea how anybody could seriously believe that Archer is a racist.

I like two aspects of Archer's conflict with the High Command.
First, that Broken Bow and First Flight said that it has to be a rash guy who breaks with orthodoxy, bending to the Vulcan will, and gets humankind into deep space. The bureaucrats would wait another ten years.
Second, that the Vulcan position was correct. Humankind was not ready, made many enemies, was nearly extinguished and had to change Starfleet from an exploration agency into one that does protection as well.
But, and this is so lovely, Archer was also correct, humankind has to make these mistakes. Both positions are right from their own perspective and that's precisely why there cannot be a politically correct solution; there have to be some undiplomatic words and some estrangements.
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Old April 21 2013, 11:52 PM   #73
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

Earth (and Archer) had to make their own mistakes, decisions, and judgment calls, else they truly would have been Vulcan puppets, as the Andorians and others already believed.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:01 AM   #74
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

It will be very hard to overcome the Vulcan puppet perception without cutting their own path. I think the Xindi war may elevate humans in the rest of the quadrant's eyes.

Vulcans are smarter, stronger, far more advanced technologically.. I'm sure humans are seen as Vulcan pets by a lot of races until they avert the destruction of their world without Vulcan aid. The are more creative thinkers than Vulcans and that will be their strength.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:14 AM   #75
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Re: How could Archers Racism have been better handled

teacake wrote: View Post
The(y) are more creative thinkers than Vulcans and that will be their strength.
True this. Enterprise's Vulcans seem adverse to considering any idea that doesn't conform to their preconceived notions of what is logically or rationally possible. Even Spock was guilty of this sometimes, and McCoy was often quick to call him on it, notably in "The Galileo Seven".
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