RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,216
Posts: 5,437,733
Members: 24,952
Currently online: 502
Newest member: secondhandmeth

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 18 2013, 04:00 PM   #76
erastus25
Commodore
 
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
his later ideas seemed to be worse-the whole "evolved, enlightened Humanity" thing, plus the wacky idea that Starfleet wasn't military.
To be more specific, the Galaxy Class concept is something I don't like...
Just a head's up Mos6507 - double/triple posting is generally frowned upon at this board. Try to put all your thoughts and responses into one post when you can! The multi-quote button is really useful for facilitating this.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Gene's treatment of women on the show. Short of one attempt to put Uhura in command TOS has a tendency to be fairly misogynistic and reductionist in regards to women. Surprising considering how in touch Gene was with messages of racial equality.
__________________
"Ford!" he said, "there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out."
erastus25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 04:00 PM   #77
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

sonak wrote: View Post


yeah, I didn't know "families on starships" was specifically his idea, but if so, it was another goofy one. Think of major engagements like Wolf 359 or in some Dominion War battles.

Now try to picture families on ships during WWII at the Battle of Midway or Leyte Gulf.
I don't think the comparison is apt. The Enterprise was originally envisioned to be going on a ten-year mission to unexplored space.

There aren't too many family people who are going to sign up to not see their spouses and off-spring for a full decade. If they had held to the original concept, there'd be no way to do it without families aboard.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 04:04 PM   #78
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

erastus25 wrote: View Post
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Gene's treatment of women on the show. Short of one attempt to put Uhura in command TOS has a tendency to be fairly misogynistic and reductionist in regards to women. Surprising considering how in touch Gene was with messages of racial equality.
I think he gets somewhat of a pass on that considering he did originally have a woman as XO in The Cage and Tasha Yar as security chief in TNG.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 06:49 PM   #79
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


yeah, I didn't know "families on starships" was specifically his idea, but if so, it was another goofy one. Think of major engagements like Wolf 359 or in some Dominion War battles.

Now try to picture families on ships during WWII at the Battle of Midway or Leyte Gulf.
I don't think the comparison is apt. The Enterprise was originally envisioned to be going on a ten-year mission to unexplored space.

There aren't too many family people who are going to sign up to not see their spouses and off-spring for a full decade. If they had held to the original concept, there'd be no way to do it without families aboard.

then they should have shown families being evacuated before going into battles. They only did that a few times with the separation, but really, if they were going to have that concept, they should have stuck with it. Instead, they show kids routinely dragged along into danger and occasionally they hung a lampshade on it.(like in "rascals" when the Ferengi comment on it.)

Or it should have just been understood that to be a deep-space explorer in Starfleet meant having no kids or very rarely getting to see them.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 09:50 PM   #80
Elvira
Vice Admiral
 
Elvira's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Mysterion wrote: View Post
That everyone on the Enterprise in TOS was an officer. Silly. Just damned silly and impractical.
My take on this is Starfleet officers are all "officers," the same way all Police officers are "officers."

Miles O'Brien is a senior NCO, but he is also a Starfleet officer.

yousirname wrote: View Post
Maybe the waiters are trainee chefs? Did we see people cleaning dishes? You'd think there'd be a machine to do that given that even we have dishwashers.
We do see people clearing tables in ten forward (and serving), and we rarely see machines robots. My thought is that these are paid civilian contractors working for Starfleet, likely spouses of Starfleet crewmembers.

sonak wrote: View Post
think of a military, where they rotate whose job it is to clean the latrines or something.
Problem there is that isn't in the least how it works in the military, the lowest ranking enlisted clean the "latrines, and the Navy (iirc) has a janitorial career field. Once you're "made" in the service (E3 or bouts) the only time you touch a communal toilet is with your ass cheeks.

A military is not democratic, but if a system can be worked out there for rotation, I don't see why it's not possible to do it in a post-scarcity, democratic society
If someone refuses to perform in your supposed "post-scarcity" society what happens? Fire them? Strictly speaking they don't work for you. Psychology conditioning? Force? Penial colonies?

RAMA wrote: View Post
As for the OP....Gene's worst ideas ... Transporters: Made the show affordable. But also made it too easy to get out of trouble=plot contrivances to get it not to work.
I think the transporters are fine, as long as they are used solely as a transportation device, move from point A to point B.

Actually technological breakthroughs of the next 30-40 years will probably render capitalism moot, and something like Gene's ideas about evolving past simple monetary gain may be possible
Except that wouldn't be a technological change, it would be a deliberate social and cultural one.

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Arthur C. Clarke was a believer that advancing technology would destroy the utility of money, our current notions of economics and the entire concept of work for pay.
Clarke also wrote that in the future we would breed and slaughter whales as a major part of Humanities food supply. That wacky Clarke.

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The Omega Glory is one of my two hated Star Trek episodes. I think it's pretty good that I only have two out of 700+
The Omega Glory is one of my top ten all time favorite episodes of Trek, all series.
One of my favorites as well, I think it had a lot to say. Star Trek is at it's best when it has a lot to say.

Elvira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 10:10 PM   #81
JoeZhang
Vice Admiral
 
JoeZhang's Avatar
 
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

James T. Kirk is named after his mum's 'Love instructor'.
JoeZhang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 10:16 PM   #82
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
James T. Kirk is named after his mum's 'Love instructor'.
I planned on just leaving that one alone. Gene was obviously experimenting with the pharmaceuticals when he came up with that one.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18 2013, 11:19 PM   #83
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
That everyone on the Enterprise in TOS was an officer. Silly. Just damned silly and impractical.
My take on this is Starfleet officers are all "officers," the same way all Police officers are "officers."

Miles O'Brien is a senior NCO, but he is also a Starfleet officer.
We can remove the "everyone is an officer" from the list. It was really just something said off-camera, but it doesn't jibe with actual stuff onscreen, where enlisted have been shown in Trek since day one.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 04:18 AM   #84
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
That everyone on the Enterprise in TOS was an officer. Silly. Just damned silly and impractical.
My take on this is Starfleet officers are all "officers," the same way all Police officers are "officers."

Miles O'Brien is a senior NCO, but he is also a Starfleet officer.

yousirname wrote: View Post
Maybe the waiters are trainee chefs? Did we see people cleaning dishes? You'd think there'd be a machine to do that given that even we have dishwashers.
We do see people clearing tables in ten forward (and serving), and we rarely see machines robots. My thought is that these are paid civilian contractors working for Starfleet, likely spouses of Starfleet crewmembers.

Problem there is that isn't in the least how it works in the military, the lowest ranking enlisted clean the "latrines, and the Navy (iirc) has a janitorial career field. Once you're "made" in the service (E3 or bouts) the only time you touch a communal toilet is with your ass cheeks.

If someone refuses to perform in your supposed "post-scarcity" society what happens? Fire them? Strictly speaking they don't work for you. Psychology conditioning? Force? Penial colonies?

I think the transporters are fine, as long as they are used solely as a transportation device, move from point A to point B.

Except that wouldn't be a technological change, it would be a deliberate social and cultural one.

Clarke also wrote that in the future we would breed and slaughter whales as a major part of Humanities food supply. That wacky Clarke.

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The Omega Glory is one of my two hated Star Trek episodes. I think it's pretty good that I only have two out of 700+
The Omega Glory is one of my top ten all time favorite episodes of Trek, all series.
One of my favorites as well, I think it had a lot to say. Star Trek is at it's best when it has a lot to say.


As to the "what happens if someone refuses to perform" question, well, what happens when someone doesn't think it's right that they have to pay a chunk of their income in taxes in our modern society? Or they don't think they should be forced to wear seatbelts?


people like to act like coercion is somehow the deal-breaker in a socialist or quasi-socialist system, which I always find hilarious. There's coercion of some sort in EVERY society that has and ever will exist, so let's just be open about it.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 05:08 AM   #85
ZapBrannigan
Fleet Captain
 
ZapBrannigan's Avatar
 
Location: New York State
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
James T. Kirk is named after his mum's 'Love instructor'.
I planned on just leaving that one alone. Gene was obviously experimenting with the pharmaceuticals when he came up with that one.
I never actually read the TMP novelization, but I found what you're talking about at Memory Beta. It strikes me as a sleazy, vulgar kind of futurism. But Robert Heinlein's novels were that way too regarding future sexual mores, which was probably Roddenberry's influence. [And neither of them were cynical and sleazy enough to predict the Paris Hilton/Kim Kardashian career path of parlaying an explicit sex tape into a whole career about being famous for being famous.]

Incidentally, it's been pretty well documented that GR didn't just experiment with illegal drugs. He started smoking pot seriously during STAR TREK's third season if not sooner, and later got addicted to cocaine. Can't say I admire that behavior.
ZapBrannigan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 06:36 AM   #86
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Having a world without money may not be feasible in real life but it works really well for a television show. Seriously, libertarians preach worse than Roddenberry, and think they're twice as smart. (And I consider myself one).

I would imagine the people who do the crappy work are the people who haven't proven themselves yet. Just because there's no money doesn't mean there's no competition for the best positions.

You want to be an architect, you take a crappy entry job at an architecture firm and do the work nobody else wants to do for a while, then when you prove yourself you take on better work.

Plus based on what we've seen of Earth life, people are willing to clean up after themselves. None of that privileged aversion to picking up a broom.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 07:01 AM   #87
mos6507
Captain
 
mos6507's Avatar
 
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Incidentally, it's been pretty well documented that GR didn't just experiment with illegal drugs. He started smoking pot seriously during STAR TREK's third season if not sooner, and later got addicted to cocaine. Can't say I admire that behavior.
Not refuting it, but could you tell me where that information comes from? It wouldn't surprise me that he got into drugs along with the whole sweep of the counter-culture movement, and I read that he married Majel Barrett in a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony while kind of implies him getting into eastern ideas ala the Beatles, but this is the first I've heard of him being addicted to coke.

Of course, I didn't know about Nimoy's bout with alcoholism until fairly recently.

BillJ wrote: View Post
There aren't too many family people who are going to sign up to not see their spouses and off-spring for a full decade. If they had held to the original concept, there'd be no way to do it without families aboard.
I don't think that changes things. Dragging your family out into uncharted space seems like a reckless thing to do. Kind of the intergalactic equivalent of the Mosquito Coast. The only way to white-wash that is to just not put the ship in much danger of being destroyed, which is basically how most of TNG went down.

People kind of munge TNG in with TOS now but there definitely was a concerted effort to show how technology had improved since the days of TOS. And the more you allow technology to progress like this, the more you remove some of the adventure aspects of explorers being out there in the middle of nowhere roughing-it. Letting the Federation and Klingons kiss and makeup didn't help matters either. There's a line to be draw with utopian ideals and if you go too far, you remove too much suspense and conflict.
__________________
Fem Trekz on Facebook
mos6507 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 07:48 AM   #88
ZapBrannigan
Fleet Captain
 
ZapBrannigan's Avatar
 
Location: New York State
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Incidentally, it's been pretty well documented that GR didn't just experiment with illegal drugs. He started smoking pot seriously during STAR TREK's third season if not sooner, and later got addicted to cocaine. Can't say I admire that behavior.
Not refuting it, but could you tell me where that information comes from? It wouldn't surprise me that he got into drugs along with the whole sweep of the counter-culture movement, and I read that he married Majel Barrett in a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony while kind of implies him getting into eastern ideas ala the Beatles, but this is the first I've heard of him being addicted to coke.

Of course, I didn't know about Nimoy's bout with alcoholism until fairly recently.
I got Roddenberry's marijuana consumption from INSIDE STAR TREK by Justman and Solow (recommended). That book might have mentioned his cocaine addiction as well; I read a borrowed copy and have since returned it. I'm sure I've seen his cocaine problem mentioned in various TNG-era contexts. It was a somewhat debilitating predescessor to his very debilitating end of life health problems that eventually put him in a wheelchair.

I too learned (relatively) recently about Leonard's drinking problem. He says he was an alcoholic by the third season, as this misleading photograph clearly illustrates, but you have to hand it to him: it never showed in Spock.

ZapBrannigan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 08:07 AM   #89
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
View Maurice's Twitter Profile
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
I don't think that changes things. Dragging your family out into uncharted space seems like a reckless thing to do.
Rather like packing our family into a wagon and following the Oregon Trail. We live in a very risk averse society today (in some ways) but that's not necessarily how it always was or will be.
__________________
* * *
"The road to hell is paved with works-in-progress."
—Philip Roth
Maurice is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 19 2013, 08:26 AM   #90
JoeZhang
Vice Admiral
 
JoeZhang's Avatar
 
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Maurice wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
I don't think that changes things. Dragging your family out into uncharted space seems like a reckless thing to do.
Rather like packing our family into a wagon and following the Oregon Trail. We live in a very risk averse society today (in some ways) but that's not necessarily how it always was or will be.
That works with the original concept of TNG but not how the show actually ended up - danger inherent to travel into the unknown is one thing - flying your ship full of families into battle with the Borg is quite another. It's no surprise that quite a few episodes simply ignore the idea that there are children on-board.
JoeZhang is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.