Voyager again, for the first time - Page 5

Guy Gardener · March 13 2013, 02:24 AM

You mean those necessary and valuable worlds which the Federation can strip mine the shit out of to fuel their empire?

The whole Class system of planets to a degree, in part measures the ecological development of a planet, that any world in question could just be a few million years away from becoming class M... And then there's a question of pre-existing life, that bars the Federation from touching any planet if there is a chance that even in 40 billion years that some "here and now" microbes might evolve into Welshmen.

Obviously there are worlds because of their distance from it's star, and other problems, which will NEVER become class M, which is why they got probably at least 26 classifications of planet types until you get to an absolute penultimate clusterfuck like a class Y planet from Voy: Demon.

Have you ever wondered what a Class N planet is like?

What happens to the soufflé if you leave it in the oven too long?

teacake · March 13 2013, 02:51 AM

What class was Ceti Alpha V after the big disaster knocked it out of M?

The Federation is stupid if they are all hands off of planets with some monkeys or microbes on them in case they evolve into sentience. No one else is going to be so prissy about it, the Klingons will just show up and strip mine it or whatever. If they filled these planets up with a bunch of holograms they would have some claim on them with minimal investment. Then once the holograms have turned the monkey planets into paradises there could be a mysterious accident with the holo projectors, or better yet a virus.

If all the EMH drones we saw in the mine were suddenly liberated, all with mobile emitters how long would it take them to develop into distinct people? As in, not immediately recognizable as the Doctor's personality. Sure they might branch off into different interests and pursuits but I bet even if they all changed their appearance five minutes of talking to one of them would have VOY's crew knowing they were EMH Mark 1's.

Guy Gardener · March 13 2013, 03:06 AM

From TNG Homesoil

LUISA: What we're doing is so exciting, so inspiring. We take a lifeless planet and little by little transform it into an M class environment, capable of supporting life. Terraforming makes you feel a little god-like. The first phase involves selecting the planet. That's very important. It must have the right mass and gravity, the correct rate of rotation, and a balanced day and night. The planet must also be without life or the prospect of life developing naturally. The Federation determines if that's so. Then, we take over. This station is phase two. Phase Three involves water. Usually we create basins using hydraulic landscaping, but the water on this planet is subsurface, and extremely high in salt content. We are just about to begin pumping and filtering the water, removing the salt, oxygenating and replacing. Next, we introduce micro-organisms, and when the process is complete eventually, we'll have a lush, arable, biosphere.
(in 30-35 years according to her display)

It's a cleverly veiled comment on abortion.

The life expectancy of the Federation sometimes seems to be measure in months. I'm assuming that these worlds they decline on using or terraforming because they contain life or the potential of life are "inside" Federation borders, and the mighty star empire just goes around these bumpkin worlds, believing the 40 million years after the fall of the Federation, that they could make something of themselves.

Interesting.

After TNG The Chase, could the Federation feel the need to tattoo messages to future species in the future onto their fish and or monkey ancestor DNA as a message in a bottle to explain to tomorrow how the galaxy was so long ago?

NightJim · March 13 2013, 03:49 PM

Ex Post Facto

aka Voyager does Noir murder story, complete with femme fatale and some espionage. How could I not like it? It's by no means a standout amazing episode, but it had all the right moves to thoroughly entertain me.

Also the ship to ship combat was fun with Chakotay using an 'old' trick, Janeway being unimpressed but it working anyway because "the old tricks are new again".

I also really liked Tuvok invterviewing the widow, makes an incredible burn on her that actually got me laughing. "It is rare to encounter someone who is as dispassionate as we are."

One thing this episode did solidify for me was my problem with Away Teams. Although it makes sense in this instance, in nearly every instance so far Janeway has led them, which we know is a contradiction to Starfleet regs. Looking back at what little I can remember, and the general animosity toward Chakotay, maybe him reinforcing the point of the First Officer leading the Away Teams might have helped the character.

NightJim · March 14 2013, 06:08 PM

Emanations

Pretty meh episode for me. Basically boils down to 'don't let science blind you to other possibilities regarding an afterlife'. I'm not sure why the episode didn't really sit with me, maybe it was Harry, or the subject matter is something I've long made up my mind on but just didn't do much for me.

Also there's some rather terrible dialogue in a few places. In the same conversation a few of the Vhnori yo-yo between 'we don't transcend?' to 'you're from the other side!'. Especially the high priest/scientist, who does about two 180s in his conversation when he and Kim have their first proper chat about it.

On the flip side, that Bajoran that's been hanging around since the start has a name. I hadn't realised how much build up there was to Seska. I remember the pay-off (it was one of my best mates favourite thing about season 1 of Voyager when it first aired) but to see this much scene setting is very cool.

Addendum: Probably going to take a few days off from Voyager. I've got a bunch of other shows I need to catch up on, and while I read New Frontier: Martyr it seems like a perfect spot to take a break.

NightJim · March 16 2013, 05:22 PM

Well that didn't take very long. I burned through Martyr in three days, and didn't get chance to watch the other shows, but Voyager was calling out to me to be watched.

So here's Prime Factors

It started on a pretty boring level, but when they got round to introducing the space-folding transporter, and the Sikarian's unwillingness to share things started to look up. It's the Prime Directive in reverse. A rather nice idea, one that's then completely laid out.

But the way the episode unfolds pays that blatancy off. See the crew torn between trying to figure out the technology and respecting the Sikarian version of the Prime Directive is fascinating, along with the further developments of Seska, who really steps into the spotlight here, as well as the return of the Carey who was in the running for Chief Engineer. Having all these minor characters repeatedly pop up really sells the small crew. Apart from O'Brien and Morn I never really noticed this on previous Trek. Admittedly that could just be me being too young or the weekly instalments making me miss the subtler details, but I really like it.

NightJim · March 17 2013, 03:49 PM

State of Flux

aka The Seska Payoff.

It's weird that in modern TV this would probably be the end of season finale, the big reveal that the crew were being betrayed. However, I really liked it. Not much more to say than that. Great episode.

Guy Gardener · March 17 2013, 04:11 PM

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but unfortunately you are imagining all that.

The producers didn't decide that Seska was a Cardassian until this episode which means no one told Martha to be anything other than a Bajoran who happens to be a dick up to this point... Just like the folkes across the lot didn't tell Alex Siddig that he was playing a Founder of the Dominion for 1/4 of a season.

NightJim · March 17 2013, 06:56 PM

Really? Because I just read on Memory Alpha that this episode was conceived first then pushed further back so they could build the character up for the emotional pay off.

teacake · March 17 2013, 10:59 PM

I am cracking up about Siddig, I never knew that.. I'd love to know what his reaction to this news was.

I think with Seska they made her such a conniving Bajoran that she already fit the Cardassian template. But I'm interested to know when Hackett found out.

Guy Gardener · March 18 2013, 12:41 AM

NightJim wrote:

Really? Because I just read on Memory Alpha that this episode was conceived first then pushed further back so they could build the character up for the emotional pay off.

The problem with this business is that the truth keeps changing.

I knew that Martha didn't know, which to a point memory alpha supports. It just seems logical that if the production staff knew, then they should have told her sooner rather than later to help with her method, but they didn't trust her as an actress. Jeri kept the delightful Miss Hackett in the dark for at least 2 of her 5 season one appearances, possibly 3 and then outed her secret in the fifth.

I'm not sure if it's better or worse that the Seska character wasn't in the original scripts for Parallax", "Phage", "Emanations" or "Prime Factors" and that her lines if they existed were contributed to walkons or maybe Carey... SHE STOLE ALL OF CAREY'S LINES! THAT BITCH! (Yes Carey and Chakotay used to have sex which is how he was a Maquis spy on Voyager who was never revealed... If Joe was revealed as a Maquis spy, would they make him trade in his pips for a provisional rank badge with the rest of the rebel scum? Y'know if most of the crew was, as Cal Hudson suggested, Maquis sympathizers, it's no wonder they all integrated so quickly and organically.)but her character was added to these probably mostly finished scripts after someone had sold the producers State of Flux. The Producers didn't move things around, what they did was far more intrusive, Jeri Taylor and Michael Biller retroactively edited the space time continuum like wanton gods.

Which is so cool and Trek you would think they should be more proud of it?

Time travel.

Sweet.

NightJim · March 18 2013, 10:00 AM

haha somewhere in there you lost me. But damn them for messing with the time stream!

As for the stealing of lines, if it was just a walk on then much better. I like when you get more identifiable minor crew members, something StarGate was pretty good at, and of course the pay off here, even if the showrunners kept everyone out the loop.

Stealing lines is not quite as good, but since it helps the pay off I think it's cool.

Guy Gardener · March 18 2013, 10:38 AM

teacake wrote:

I am cracking up about Siddig, I never knew that.. I'd love to know what his reaction to this news was.

I think with Seska they made her such a conniving Bajoran that she already fit the Cardassian template. But I'm interested to know when Hackett found out.

From Memory Alpha like Jim said...

According to Seska actress Martha Hackett, the revelation that her character turns out to be a Cardassian operative was decided shortly after the series went into production. The actress recalled, "I think it was three episodes or four episodes in, they thought, 'Well, let's make her a Cardassian spy.'" After laughing at the outlandish idea and then nodding, the actress enthused, "So, um, it was a good surprise." ("Saboteur Extraordinaire: Seska", VOY Season 2 DVD special features} She elaborated, "That episode was a real surprise! I wish I had known earlier that Seska and Chakotay had been lovers, because I would have played some scenes in previous episodes differently. In that story, she became more mature and craftier than I had initially envisioned her; Seska definitely has a lot of colors to her." (The Official Star Trek: Voyager Magazine, issue #7, p. 8) Hackett also said, "It was a surprise when Seska became a Cardassian, and her relationship with Chakotay was a surprise too." (Star Trek Monthly issue 34, p. 37)

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/State_of_Flux_(episode)

NightJim · March 18 2013, 02:02 PM

Yeah, that ex-lovers angle really comes out of nowhere. That bit was certainly a last minute addition. Like Hackett says, knowing that before hand may have changed a scene or two in previous episodes.

NightJim · March 18 2013, 11:03 PM

Heroes and Demons

Oh joy, a holodeck episode. And some Chakotay faith babble. Not a great start.

But then- The Doctor gets an away mission. A big milestone for the character, some great development for him, and some fantastic acting by Picardo. It turns what was starting to sound a bit tired into quite a fun episode.

I have no idea what is going on with Janeway's hair. I saw an interview where she said the producers kept trying different things, and she has had a fair few styles, but this one is ridiculous. Thank God she convinced them to stop it in season 2.

March 13 2013, 02:24 AM	#61
Guy Gardener Admiral Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.	Re: Voyager again, for the first time You mean those necessary and valuable worlds which the Federation can strip mine the shit out of to fuel their empire? The whole Class system of planets to a degree, in part measures the ecological development of a planet, that any world in question could just be a few million years away from becoming class M... And then there's a question of pre-existing life, that bars the Federation from touching any planet if there is a chance that even in 40 billion years that some "here and now" microbes might evolve into Welshmen. Obviously there are worlds because of their distance from it's star, and other problems, which will NEVER become class M, which is why they got probably at least 26 classifications of planet types until you get to an absolute penultimate clusterfuck like a class Y planet from Voy: Demon. Have you ever wondered what a Class N planet is like? What happens to the soufflé if you leave it in the oven too long? __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

March 13 2013, 02:51 AM	#62
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Voyager again, for the first time What class was Ceti Alpha V after the big disaster knocked it out of M? The Federation is stupid if they are all hands off of planets with some monkeys or microbes on them in case they evolve into sentience. No one else is going to be so prissy about it, the Klingons will just show up and strip mine it or whatever. If they filled these planets up with a bunch of holograms they would have some claim on them with minimal investment. Then once the holograms have turned the monkey planets into paradises there could be a mysterious accident with the holo projectors, or better yet a virus. If all the EMH drones we saw in the mine were suddenly liberated, all with mobile emitters how long would it take them to develop into distinct people? As in, not immediately recognizable as the Doctor's personality. Sure they might branch off into different interests and pursuits but I bet even if they all changed their appearance five minutes of talking to one of them would have VOY's crew knowing they were EMH Mark 1's. __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne

March 13 2013, 03:49 PM	#64
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time Ex Post Facto aka Voyager does Noir murder story, complete with femme fatale and some espionage. How could I not like it? It's by no means a standout amazing episode, but it had all the right moves to thoroughly entertain me. Also the ship to ship combat was fun with Chakotay using an 'old' trick, Janeway being unimpressed but it working anyway because "the old tricks are new again". I also really liked Tuvok invterviewing the widow, makes an incredible burn on her that actually got me laughing. "It is rare to encounter someone who is as dispassionate as we are." One thing this episode did solidify for me was my problem with Away Teams. Although it makes sense in this instance, in nearly every instance so far Janeway has led them, which we know is a contradiction to Starfleet regs. Looking back at what little I can remember, and the general animosity toward Chakotay, maybe him reinforcing the point of the First Officer leading the Away Teams might have helped the character.

March 14 2013, 06:08 PM	#65
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time Emanations Pretty meh episode for me. Basically boils down to 'don't let science blind you to other possibilities regarding an afterlife'. I'm not sure why the episode didn't really sit with me, maybe it was Harry, or the subject matter is something I've long made up my mind on but just didn't do much for me. Also there's some rather terrible dialogue in a few places. In the same conversation a few of the Vhnori yo-yo between 'we don't transcend?' to 'you're from the other side!'. Especially the high priest/scientist, who does about two 180s in his conversation when he and Kim have their first proper chat about it. On the flip side, that Bajoran that's been hanging around since the start has a name. I hadn't realised how much build up there was to Seska. I remember the pay-off (it was one of my best mates favourite thing about season 1 of Voyager when it first aired) but to see this much scene setting is very cool. Addendum: Probably going to take a few days off from Voyager. I've got a bunch of other shows I need to catch up on, and while I read New Frontier: Martyr it seems like a perfect spot to take a break. Last edited by NightJim; March 14 2013 at 06:09 PM. Reason: insert addendum

March 16 2013, 05:22 PM	#66
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time Well that didn't take very long. I burned through Martyr in three days, and didn't get chance to watch the other shows, but Voyager was calling out to me to be watched. So here's Prime Factors It started on a pretty boring level, but when they got round to introducing the space-folding transporter, and the Sikarian's unwillingness to share things started to look up. It's the Prime Directive in reverse. A rather nice idea, one that's then completely laid out. But the way the episode unfolds pays that blatancy off. See the crew torn between trying to figure out the technology and respecting the Sikarian version of the Prime Directive is fascinating, along with the further developments of Seska, who really steps into the spotlight here, as well as the return of the Carey who was in the running for Chief Engineer. Having all these minor characters repeatedly pop up really sells the small crew. Apart from O'Brien and Morn I never really noticed this on previous Trek. Admittedly that could just be me being too young or the weekly instalments making me miss the subtler details, but I really like it.

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

March 17 2013, 03:49 PM	#67
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time State of Flux aka The Seska Payoff. It's weird that in modern TV this would probably be the end of season finale, the big reveal that the crew were being betrayed. However, I really liked it. Not much more to say than that. Great episode.

March 17 2013, 04:11 PM	#68
Guy Gardener Admiral Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.	Re: Voyager again, for the first time I don't mean to rain on your parade, but unfortunately you are imagining all that. The producers didn't decide that Seska was a Cardassian until this episode which means no one told Martha to be anything other than a Bajoran who happens to be a dick up to this point... Just like the folkes across the lot didn't tell Alex Siddig that he was playing a Founder of the Dominion for 1/4 of a season. __________________ "Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft." Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

March 17 2013, 06:56 PM	#69
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time Really? Because I just read on Memory Alpha that this episode was conceived first then pushed further back so they could build the character up for the emotional pay off.

March 17 2013, 10:59 PM	#70
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Voyager again, for the first time I am cracking up about Siddig, I never knew that.. I'd love to know what his reaction to this news was. I think with Seska they made her such a conniving Bajoran that she already fit the Cardassian template. But I'm interested to know when Hackett found out. __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne

March 18 2013, 10:00 AM	#72
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time haha somewhere in there you lost me. But damn them for messing with the time stream! As for the stealing of lines, if it was just a walk on then much better. I like when you get more identifiable minor crew members, something StarGate was pretty good at, and of course the pay off here, even if the showrunners kept everyone out the loop. Stealing lines is not quite as good, but since it helps the pay off I think it's cool.

March 18 2013, 02:02 PM	#74
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time Yeah, that ex-lovers angle really comes out of nowhere. That bit was certainly a last minute addition. Like Hackett says, knowing that before hand may have changed a scene or two in previous episodes.

March 18 2013, 11:03 PM	#75
NightJim Lieutenant Commander Location: Scunthorpe, UK	Re: Voyager again, for the first time Heroes and Demons Oh joy, a holodeck episode. And some Chakotay faith babble. Not a great start. But then- The Doctor gets an away mission. A big milestone for the character, some great development for him, and some fantastic acting by Picardo. It turns what was starting to sound a bit tired into quite a fun episode. I have no idea what is going on with Janeway's hair. I saw an interview where she said the producers kept trying different things, and she has had a fair few styles, but this one is ridiculous. Thank God she convinced them to stop it in season 2.