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Old March 18 2013, 04:00 PM   #76
erastus25
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
his later ideas seemed to be worse-the whole "evolved, enlightened Humanity" thing, plus the wacky idea that Starfleet wasn't military.
To be more specific, the Galaxy Class concept is something I don't like...
Just a head's up Mos6507 - double/triple posting is generally frowned upon at this board. Try to put all your thoughts and responses into one post when you can! The multi-quote button is really useful for facilitating this.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Gene's treatment of women on the show. Short of one attempt to put Uhura in command TOS has a tendency to be fairly misogynistic and reductionist in regards to women. Surprising considering how in touch Gene was with messages of racial equality.
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Old March 18 2013, 04:00 PM   #77
BillJ
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

sonak wrote: View Post


yeah, I didn't know "families on starships" was specifically his idea, but if so, it was another goofy one. Think of major engagements like Wolf 359 or in some Dominion War battles.

Now try to picture families on ships during WWII at the Battle of Midway or Leyte Gulf.
I don't think the comparison is apt. The Enterprise was originally envisioned to be going on a ten-year mission to unexplored space.

There aren't too many family people who are going to sign up to not see their spouses and off-spring for a full decade. If they had held to the original concept, there'd be no way to do it without families aboard.
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Old March 18 2013, 04:04 PM   #78
BillJ
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

erastus25 wrote: View Post
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Gene's treatment of women on the show. Short of one attempt to put Uhura in command TOS has a tendency to be fairly misogynistic and reductionist in regards to women. Surprising considering how in touch Gene was with messages of racial equality.
I think he gets somewhat of a pass on that considering he did originally have a woman as XO in The Cage and Tasha Yar as security chief in TNG.
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Old March 18 2013, 06:49 PM   #79
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


yeah, I didn't know "families on starships" was specifically his idea, but if so, it was another goofy one. Think of major engagements like Wolf 359 or in some Dominion War battles.

Now try to picture families on ships during WWII at the Battle of Midway or Leyte Gulf.
I don't think the comparison is apt. The Enterprise was originally envisioned to be going on a ten-year mission to unexplored space.

There aren't too many family people who are going to sign up to not see their spouses and off-spring for a full decade. If they had held to the original concept, there'd be no way to do it without families aboard.

then they should have shown families being evacuated before going into battles. They only did that a few times with the separation, but really, if they were going to have that concept, they should have stuck with it. Instead, they show kids routinely dragged along into danger and occasionally they hung a lampshade on it.(like in "rascals" when the Ferengi comment on it.)

Or it should have just been understood that to be a deep-space explorer in Starfleet meant having no kids or very rarely getting to see them.
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Old March 18 2013, 09:50 PM   #80
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Mysterion wrote: View Post
That everyone on the Enterprise in TOS was an officer. Silly. Just damned silly and impractical.
My take on this is Starfleet officers are all "officers," the same way all Police officers are "officers."

Miles O'Brien is a senior NCO, but he is also a Starfleet officer.

yousirname wrote: View Post
Maybe the waiters are trainee chefs? Did we see people cleaning dishes? You'd think there'd be a machine to do that given that even we have dishwashers.
We do see people clearing tables in ten forward (and serving), and we rarely see machines robots. My thought is that these are paid civilian contractors working for Starfleet, likely spouses of Starfleet crewmembers.

sonak wrote: View Post
think of a military, where they rotate whose job it is to clean the latrines or something.
Problem there is that isn't in the least how it works in the military, the lowest ranking enlisted clean the "latrines, and the Navy (iirc) has a janitorial career field. Once you're "made" in the service (E3 or bouts) the only time you touch a communal toilet is with your ass cheeks.

A military is not democratic, but if a system can be worked out there for rotation, I don't see why it's not possible to do it in a post-scarcity, democratic society
If someone refuses to perform in your supposed "post-scarcity" society what happens? Fire them? Strictly speaking they don't work for you. Psychology conditioning? Force? Penial colonies?

RAMA wrote: View Post
As for the OP....Gene's worst ideas ... Transporters: Made the show affordable. But also made it too easy to get out of trouble=plot contrivances to get it not to work.
I think the transporters are fine, as long as they are used solely as a transportation device, move from point A to point B.

Actually technological breakthroughs of the next 30-40 years will probably render capitalism moot, and something like Gene's ideas about evolving past simple monetary gain may be possible
Except that wouldn't be a technological change, it would be a deliberate social and cultural one.

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Arthur C. Clarke was a believer that advancing technology would destroy the utility of money, our current notions of economics and the entire concept of work for pay.
Clarke also wrote that in the future we would breed and slaughter whales as a major part of Humanities food supply. That wacky Clarke.

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The Omega Glory is one of my two hated Star Trek episodes. I think it's pretty good that I only have two out of 700+
The Omega Glory is one of my top ten all time favorite episodes of Trek, all series.
One of my favorites as well, I think it had a lot to say. Star Trek is at it's best when it has a lot to say.

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Old March 18 2013, 10:10 PM   #81
JoeZhang
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

James T. Kirk is named after his mum's 'Love instructor'.
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Old March 18 2013, 10:16 PM   #82
BillJ
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
James T. Kirk is named after his mum's 'Love instructor'.
I planned on just leaving that one alone. Gene was obviously experimenting with the pharmaceuticals when he came up with that one.
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Old March 18 2013, 11:19 PM   #83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
That everyone on the Enterprise in TOS was an officer. Silly. Just damned silly and impractical.
My take on this is Starfleet officers are all "officers," the same way all Police officers are "officers."

Miles O'Brien is a senior NCO, but he is also a Starfleet officer.
We can remove the "everyone is an officer" from the list. It was really just something said off-camera, but it doesn't jibe with actual stuff onscreen, where enlisted have been shown in Trek since day one.
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Old March 19 2013, 04:18 AM   #84
sonak
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
That everyone on the Enterprise in TOS was an officer. Silly. Just damned silly and impractical.
My take on this is Starfleet officers are all "officers," the same way all Police officers are "officers."

Miles O'Brien is a senior NCO, but he is also a Starfleet officer.

yousirname wrote: View Post
Maybe the waiters are trainee chefs? Did we see people cleaning dishes? You'd think there'd be a machine to do that given that even we have dishwashers.
We do see people clearing tables in ten forward (and serving), and we rarely see machines robots. My thought is that these are paid civilian contractors working for Starfleet, likely spouses of Starfleet crewmembers.

Problem there is that isn't in the least how it works in the military, the lowest ranking enlisted clean the "latrines, and the Navy (iirc) has a janitorial career field. Once you're "made" in the service (E3 or bouts) the only time you touch a communal toilet is with your ass cheeks.

If someone refuses to perform in your supposed "post-scarcity" society what happens? Fire them? Strictly speaking they don't work for you. Psychology conditioning? Force? Penial colonies?

I think the transporters are fine, as long as they are used solely as a transportation device, move from point A to point B.

Except that wouldn't be a technological change, it would be a deliberate social and cultural one.

Clarke also wrote that in the future we would breed and slaughter whales as a major part of Humanities food supply. That wacky Clarke.

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The Omega Glory is one of my two hated Star Trek episodes. I think it's pretty good that I only have two out of 700+
The Omega Glory is one of my top ten all time favorite episodes of Trek, all series.
One of my favorites as well, I think it had a lot to say. Star Trek is at it's best when it has a lot to say.


As to the "what happens if someone refuses to perform" question, well, what happens when someone doesn't think it's right that they have to pay a chunk of their income in taxes in our modern society? Or they don't think they should be forced to wear seatbelts?


people like to act like coercion is somehow the deal-breaker in a socialist or quasi-socialist system, which I always find hilarious. There's coercion of some sort in EVERY society that has and ever will exist, so let's just be open about it.
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Old March 19 2013, 05:08 AM   #85
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

BillJ wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
James T. Kirk is named after his mum's 'Love instructor'.
I planned on just leaving that one alone. Gene was obviously experimenting with the pharmaceuticals when he came up with that one.
I never actually read the TMP novelization, but I found what you're talking about at Memory Beta. It strikes me as a sleazy, vulgar kind of futurism. But Robert Heinlein's novels were that way too regarding future sexual mores, which was probably Roddenberry's influence. [And neither of them were cynical and sleazy enough to predict the Paris Hilton/Kim Kardashian career path of parlaying an explicit sex tape into a whole career about being famous for being famous.]

Incidentally, it's been pretty well documented that GR didn't just experiment with illegal drugs. He started smoking pot seriously during STAR TREK's third season if not sooner, and later got addicted to cocaine. Can't say I admire that behavior.
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Old March 19 2013, 06:36 AM   #86
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Having a world without money may not be feasible in real life but it works really well for a television show. Seriously, libertarians preach worse than Roddenberry, and think they're twice as smart. (And I consider myself one).

I would imagine the people who do the crappy work are the people who haven't proven themselves yet. Just because there's no money doesn't mean there's no competition for the best positions.

You want to be an architect, you take a crappy entry job at an architecture firm and do the work nobody else wants to do for a while, then when you prove yourself you take on better work.

Plus based on what we've seen of Earth life, people are willing to clean up after themselves. None of that privileged aversion to picking up a broom.
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Old March 19 2013, 07:01 AM   #87
mos6507
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Incidentally, it's been pretty well documented that GR didn't just experiment with illegal drugs. He started smoking pot seriously during STAR TREK's third season if not sooner, and later got addicted to cocaine. Can't say I admire that behavior.
Not refuting it, but could you tell me where that information comes from? It wouldn't surprise me that he got into drugs along with the whole sweep of the counter-culture movement, and I read that he married Majel Barrett in a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony while kind of implies him getting into eastern ideas ala the Beatles, but this is the first I've heard of him being addicted to coke.

Of course, I didn't know about Nimoy's bout with alcoholism until fairly recently.

BillJ wrote: View Post
There aren't too many family people who are going to sign up to not see their spouses and off-spring for a full decade. If they had held to the original concept, there'd be no way to do it without families aboard.
I don't think that changes things. Dragging your family out into uncharted space seems like a reckless thing to do. Kind of the intergalactic equivalent of the Mosquito Coast. The only way to white-wash that is to just not put the ship in much danger of being destroyed, which is basically how most of TNG went down.

People kind of munge TNG in with TOS now but there definitely was a concerted effort to show how technology had improved since the days of TOS. And the more you allow technology to progress like this, the more you remove some of the adventure aspects of explorers being out there in the middle of nowhere roughing-it. Letting the Federation and Klingons kiss and makeup didn't help matters either. There's a line to be draw with utopian ideals and if you go too far, you remove too much suspense and conflict.
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Old March 19 2013, 07:48 AM   #88
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Incidentally, it's been pretty well documented that GR didn't just experiment with illegal drugs. He started smoking pot seriously during STAR TREK's third season if not sooner, and later got addicted to cocaine. Can't say I admire that behavior.
Not refuting it, but could you tell me where that information comes from? It wouldn't surprise me that he got into drugs along with the whole sweep of the counter-culture movement, and I read that he married Majel Barrett in a Buddhist-Shinto ceremony while kind of implies him getting into eastern ideas ala the Beatles, but this is the first I've heard of him being addicted to coke.

Of course, I didn't know about Nimoy's bout with alcoholism until fairly recently.
I got Roddenberry's marijuana consumption from INSIDE STAR TREK by Justman and Solow (recommended). That book might have mentioned his cocaine addiction as well; I read a borrowed copy and have since returned it. I'm sure I've seen his cocaine problem mentioned in various TNG-era contexts. It was a somewhat debilitating predescessor to his very debilitating end of life health problems that eventually put him in a wheelchair.

I too learned (relatively) recently about Leonard's drinking problem. He says he was an alcoholic by the third season, as this misleading photograph clearly illustrates, but you have to hand it to him: it never showed in Spock.

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Old March 19 2013, 08:07 AM   #89
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
I don't think that changes things. Dragging your family out into uncharted space seems like a reckless thing to do.
Rather like packing our family into a wagon and following the Oregon Trail. We live in a very risk averse society today (in some ways) but that's not necessarily how it always was or will be.
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Old March 19 2013, 08:26 AM   #90
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Maurice wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
I don't think that changes things. Dragging your family out into uncharted space seems like a reckless thing to do.
Rather like packing our family into a wagon and following the Oregon Trail. We live in a very risk averse society today (in some ways) but that's not necessarily how it always was or will be.
That works with the original concept of TNG but not how the show actually ended up - danger inherent to travel into the unknown is one thing - flying your ship full of families into battle with the Borg is quite another. It's no surprise that quite a few episodes simply ignore the idea that there are children on-board.
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